Vox Controli comments part two

[DeepO]

I think a chat with Vox is in order. They should get more specifics about the teleport plan (so Aeson should probably attend), and we should more explicitely offer our help in managing everything. I don't mind them trying to do it on their own, but not if it means that we don't get some cities faster. The moment a city gets to size 1, it should be given to us... already I'm only half pleased they are building an extra worker in D-ville. That's okay, as long as it means we get one size 2 city

What I want to say is: I want to let Vox grow, and to have them relatively viable on Lego Minor, but if we can do ourselves a bit better in helping them, and controlling they don't take too much, it would be better.

Oh, we might mention that they don't need all those units, if that means they can take a settler more to their new home.

DeepO

[Shiber]

Alright, let's take Vox's catapults as per Beta's request, but tell him that we intend to sign peace in-game only once they hand over D'Ville to us, and we don't mind not having a RoP for our patrols for the next five turns.

[alva]

How about a little loan? (even without interest )

[DeepO]

Loans? no thanks... I don't trust Vox at all, and it will take a long time before I will trust them again. They have absolutely nothing to lose. I do trust that Lego will try to let Vox behave, and I would use that too, however their influence also only goes this far. Once Vox has pikes over on Legos Minor, they are realtively independent again

DeepO

[nbarclay]

We need to decide whether we want The Voice intact or whether we want Vox to disband it, and also whether we're willing to pay Vox some gold to help them clear out faster.

[notyoueither]

8 turns early for 120 gold over 20 turns? Is it worth it economically? Nathan? Aeson?

From an overall perspective, I would say yes. The earlier they are gone the better, but not before we have engineering. When do they get that, btw?

Wouldn't we want to keep the Voice? It is another site to pump a settler out of before disbanding to resettle more to our liking.

[nbarclay]

Until (and unless) we get our Forbidden Palace moved to Elipolis or its replacement, The Voice won't have the shields it would need to make a viable settler pump. The big advantage to moving the city is that a coastal location would let us work additional coast and sea tiles that are currently out of reach. On the other hand, we would lose the city's granary and would need to an aqueduct to grow past size 6 with a coastal location.

One option would be to take the city and grow it now, and then use it to crank out workers and a settler to build a replacement city (if we haven't already built one) once our Forbidden Palace is moved. That would give us both short-term and longer-term advantages.

Regarding paying to help Vox leave early, from strictly an economic viewpoint, I don't think it matters a huge amount. We'd lose gold but gain a few shields and, more importantly, gain toward producing pop points (which could be converted to workers if we so desire - that option foms the easiest basis for cost/benefit analysis). But if it's what Vox wants to do, the diplomatic advantages probably make the idea worthwhile.

[Shiber]

The Voice: if we declare war on Vox, it could disrupt our lux trading. We're going to have to ask them to abandon it unless we don't mind stopping lux trading for one turn (this will force us to raise the lux slider momentarily though, and cost us a lot of income).

Paying Vox to leave early: my stand would be no. Vox leaving earlier = Lego getting hold of their vassals earlier, and since Nathan says that it doesn't matter much from an economical standpoint, my vote would be nay.

[nbarclay]

If we wait until our harbor in the far south is finished (about four turns if I remember right, but I don't have anything in front of me to check), we should be able to declare war without disrupting our trades. (Unless, of course, the game's "is there still a trade route?" code is seriously buggy in terms of ending a trade if the wrong civ started it. But even that shouldn't matter if all the Bobians get our map.)

[DeepO]

3 turns before the harbor in Sufa... and yes, it shouldn't matter

As to giving them money: Why don't we make it a deal? We give them the money now (or in 2 parts), and receive in return their new WM once they settle Legos Minor, and another one 20 turns from now.

I'm not sure on Vox's calculation of capital moving: I thought the system works something like: "add for each city the size, and one eighth of the number of cities, 8 tiles away. The city with the highest number becomes the new capital". In this case, they need all their cities to be at size 1, and the Lego one at size 2 or they can't keep cities here before trying the jump. Culture, AFAIK, doesn't matter.

and ask an eta on engineering, please.

DeepO

[Aeson]

I think 120g for 8 turns of 3 cities is worth it. It's almost 3 pop points (who knows if Vox can/will grow the cities if they are in their hands), access to a harbor (that's ours), and it's 24 shields and 24 commerce. The shields alone are worth 92g... add the 24 commerce and it's pretty close to even just based on what the cities will produce. The 'intangibles' make it a good deal.

[Shiber]

Ok, I'm all for it, and I suggest that we ask for their WM after they move as well.

[notyoueither]

As shown in the log, I am inclined to say yes to Beta re the 120 gold, based on responses, and see what we can get in return.

re the Voice. I indicated we probably want it. Even setting it to build a settler, it finishes at some point, and can be rushed with a small amount of gold sooner. Or, it can be set to tax collectors and wealth for production while it waits for a settler from down south before we disband it ourselves. . I see no resaon not to take it. Does anyone else?

[nbarclay]

We don't really get any advantage from the alternate location until the forbidden palace is moved, and in the meantime, The Voice can crank out workers (and maybe chop-assisted settlers). We could even found the replacement city while still using The Voice as a source of workers. In other words regardless of whether or not we want to keep The Voice as a permanent city, it makes a useful camp.

[notyoueither]

Message received from Beta. They have a counter proposal to the 5 points Beta and I discussed. I am waiting for input before replying.

My concerns. Why would we grant anything for them to hand over the last two cities at Peace + 15?

Are we or they sure of the palace jump? I thought that other cities close by counted heavily. Does the gifted one count? Has anyone ever done this sort of jump? My thinking has been that the only assured way to do it is how I outlined it to Beta. The capital is their only city here and when we occupy it, there is no other possible outcome of the jump.

I am thinking we should decline the counter. Tomorrow would be soon enough. Perhaps some of the Horse units should move back North, just as a precaution. The Vox lady ain't done singing til we stick a fork in her. Or something like that.