Turn 32

[Dominae]

Eye of the Storm is already in a pretty good position in terms of Palace placement. We coud conceivably jump it a bit farther north, but the 4 cities in the southern peninsula would suffer.

I agree that the FP will need to be manually built, probably somewhere near the isthmus or in the Voxian lands. This should not take too long, and our core is nice enough that we will not be anxiously waiting for its completion, either. Under no circumstances should not depend on a Leader (this is also my theory in SP games, but that's another story).


Dominae

[DeepO]

Arrian: I agree on the big wonder thing, plus never will it be worth it to give such a pump as EotS for a wonder. Those settlers it can build every 4-6 turns are way more important to us now... I was just mentioning it, because if we would want to go for the GLib, we should start now, or don't bother. Others will surely have an easier shot at it, and will start around this time if they really aim for it.

Of course, our future with Vox is quite uncertain, and this is the problem. If we would go for the GLib, we have to really go for it, which will sacrifice either expansion or defense. I don't like that. OTOH, we will probably be the best scientists until the middle of the middle ages, as we can have the best expansion. Which makes the GLib kind of a strange wonder: without it we can't research and trade something, as the civ with the GLib will get it instantly. With it, we would be bulking in cash for a while, which is mostly good if we want to military make a point in this game. I don't know, I guess Vox is going to be the most important part in this decision

FP: If we are going to build it manually (which I guess too, seeing our situation), I would wait until we can build or rush a courthouse. This can have a tremendous effect on the amount of turns it would take (together with the WLTKD which should be easy to reach). In that case, I wouldn't worry about it now, but would try to get it up and running somewhere near the jungle, as close to Vox as possible (which won't be very close anyway). If we ever get to democracy, we might keep the FP near us, while moving the palace to another continent, which will on the whole have more advantages then building the two this close to each other.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Power graph conclusions:
I think I made a mistake last turn. When rereading the description, I saw that not only cities, gold, culture, wonders and military strength count, but two other things I totally forgot about.

1) advances
Does this mean research advances, or era advances? With enough commerce, it could be possible that Vox got IW when we got pottery (2710 BC), but I doubt it. That would be the only possible explanation why we didn't bumped the power in that year, instead of denting it. I don't believe this... it's too early for Vox to get it. So as long as we don't advance to the middle age, this doesn't count.
Comments please.

2) resources: If connected iron counts, it could explain one of the bumps in their graph: either the one 2 turns ago (when we built a warrior, and still lost in power), or the last one (when they got a bump, similar to a warrior). I'm uncertain how big a bump would be given for connecting iron... so it's quite impossible to find out how many warriors they have now.

Sir Ralph, would it be possible to look at the military advisor again? If we are strong, we should have 2 warriors more then them, while they have iron. If we're average, I can't say for sure they have iron or not. They could have rushed either a spear, or some warriors to compensate in power.

What ever is happening, it seems that they have resumed their research, and are not saving cash (anymore).

DeepO

[DeepO]

F11 comment: notice that although we increased in productivity (26-->28), we dropped two places. It's quite likely that at least one civ has justed build another city (RPG?), and one is producing more due to increased population (lego have grown to size 3). Of course, we are more food-centered than others, so the productivity is for us mostly commerce, and not shields. But still, it says a lot about this game: others have nice starting positions too.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Once we're sure we can defend it, if we're planning to take out Vox and the continent doesn't extend too much farther north than what we've heard about, #12 might make a good FP location. That would give us a FP fairly well centered on this continent, providing the option of using a leader to move our palace to another continent at some later date without destroying our core's value. And it's not so far from EotS that corruption will slow it to a crawl (at least not once we're out of Despotism and have a courthouse).

Nathan

[Dominae]

Could someone point me to the formulas behind the F11 stats (or at least some explanation of what they represent)? I know this was posted some time ago, but I forget where...

Thanks.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Dominae, anything in particular you're looking for? I know a few of them, but don't have any threads bookmarked with explanation... but apart from the population thing, they are relatively straigth forward.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO
F11 comment: notice that although we increased in productivity (26-->28), we dropped two places. It's quite likely that at least one civ has justed build another city (RPG?), and one is producing more due to increased population (lego have grown to size 3). Of course, we are more food-centered than others, so the productivity is for us mostly commerce, and not shields. But still, it says a lot about this game: others have nice starting positions too.

Keep in mind that although we grew a pop this turn, the extra tile we're working as a result is an unimproved grassland (albeit by a river). That means odds are high that anyone else who gained a pop this turn would have gained ground on us in productivity. An extra laborer on a mined, roaded grassland with shield by a river, for example, would add three more productivity than our new laborer did. We'll be in better shape once we get another fur chopped and irrigated so Hurricane won't have to sacrifice production in favor of EotS.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Maybe when you have the time you could post a brief description of the ones you know about here on the GS forum (for our own reference). I think I know a few of them as well, but I'm interested in the actual calculations (Population = # citizens + foodbox + Workers/Settlers?). No pressure though.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

I won't absolutely guarantee these, but I think the ones I don't express doubt in are right.

Happiness is an average with unhappy counting 0%, content 50%, and happy 100%.
I'm not sure about population, but I know it does take food toward the next growth into consideration.
GNP is total gold produced.
Mfg Goods is total shields.
Land area looks like 100 square miles per tile.
Skipping a few
Military service has to do with the size of the military relative to the size of the population, although I can't confirm whether or not it's an exact ratio.
I'm not sure about Annual Income.
Productivity is total gold+food surplus+shields.

[DeepO]

True Nathan, but still... we're first in pop, and receding in position when growing is never very nice. I know it's only temporarily, but now is the only time when these graphs are going to say something. Once we get 1st and stay there, we have no indication on how the rest is doing.

Oh, BTW, how do you get to 3 more? I thought that an irrigated grassland near a river gave 2 more...

DeepO

[Arrian]

Re: waiting for a courthouse to build the FP:

Well, maybe. I like to get a courthouse built prior to FP construction in SP, but bear two things in mind:

1) Depending on which tech route we choose, courthouses might be a looooong way away.
2) The difficulty level appears to be chieftain. With two luxuries, a temple and 2 mps, getting the city into WLTKD would take what, 1 entertainer (assuming corruption is such that luxury spending would have no effect on the city)?

The FP is 200 shields. A courthouse is 80, IIRC. If we have the tech, and can chop for at least part of those 80 shields, I'd agree wholeheartedly that the courthouse should come first. If not, however, it may be best to just do temple (10 turns, rush) and then FP, aiming for WLTKD at size 6 to help with waste.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Thanks, Nathan. A little checking of my own seems to indicate that Settlers and Workers do not count towards the Population stat.

So, Productivity is a fair measure of how powerful a civ is overall, other than Score (which is an odd measure, IMO)?


Dominae

[Harovan]

Our military compared to Vox is average.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO
Oh, BTW, how do you get to 3 more? I thought that an irrigated grassland near a river gave 2 more...

A mined, roaded grassland with shield by a river generates 2 commerce and 2 shields. Our grassland generates 1 commerce and 0 shields. That's a difference in 3 in productivity. (Food is the same for both, of course.)