Project: 'Big Water-Carrying Thing'

[alva]

due to the chance of disease.

I have never seen it happen. To the best of my knowledge only fortified units are subject to disease.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Shiber
Asleepatthewheel: we can bring water all the way to the Isthmus and Vox can continue the aqueduct and bring water to their entire homeland.

So I take it they are to build a city there? Isn't that square a hill?

[alva]

The one with the worker is a hill (as Dominae pointed out , there could very well be iron*), the one with Thadeus is forest plains.

Anyone up for a pool on this ?

[zeit]

No need for a consensus this early on, we've seen how the changing circumstances play tricks and ruin our well crafted plans. We need to keep an open mind- the idea is good one, but too early for our REX phase, and might be used to stabilize the relationship with Vox- both of these are of the not so early future(although i doubt our relationship with Vox will ever come to a true peaceful stability- its just too crowded, and the early distrust will lead to dire consequnces in the future- hopefuly, for them...).

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by alva
The one with the worker is a hill (as Dominae pointed out , there could very well be iron*), the one with Thadeus is forest plains.

Hah, indeed you are correct, I must be going blind, those tiny images. hmm. thanks.

[DeepO]

Okay, first of all, we should start to find out if the have access to water. If that is true, we don't need to spend any time on this issue. I suggest to include some hint in next message, so it gets off our minds.

Second thing: Indeed, the only thing that can make this work is if we are going to limit their growth. Slaves is a much better option than they keeping their workers, as it means that growth is added to ours. I don't think we should wait too long with this, for the simple reason that it helps our expansion phase. We are going to need to irrigate and road a path up there soon enough, only the last few tiles will be for them. It is a small price if we can now do what we want to do faster (as a bunch of their slaves help us), losing a few turns on one of our workers later on. By the time we are really working for them, and not for us, workers aren't that big an issue any more, and once it gets finished, we would have not lost anything, while they lose slaves.

As limiting their growth is so important, slaves is the only way I'm going to agree on this, let them stay in their arid desert if they don't want it.

A quick calculation on timing:
there are 13 tiles to irrigate, to get from the river to where their border will be if they settle the Isthmus. Roughly, that will take 13 turns for any worker, if it's 1 or 20 to walk (not entirely true, as previous workers can road ahead. But as we want to delay it a little, they don't need to road ahead).
- Of those 13 tiles, 3 are jungle. this will require 36 turns for one GS worker to clear.
- 13 tiles irrigated take 26 turns for one GS worker
- 13 tiles take 26 turns to road.

If we count this up, we get to 88 turns for 1 worker to get water to the Isthmus (plus an extra 13 movement), so with one party of 1 worker and 2 slaves it will roughly take 44 turns + 13 movement, or 57 turns. 2 of our workers, and 4 of them will take 22 + 13, or 35.

I know there are some ways of speeding it up, but let us, for the moment, take this number as a reaslitic guess.

So... by the time water gets to Vox if we start now, they will be out of despotism, and need it for growth. But, for every worker we will commit, they are going to give up the food equivalent of one extra city. I think it is a fair trade, either have growing cities in monarchy or republic, or don't have any decent cities, but a few cities more.

If we would find out they have no water, it would possibly be the best deal we can make in this game: we would be limiting their growth, while using some of what we do in theory for them for our own. And most importantly: if they decide to attack us, we simply have a bunch of slaves, and they have no water. It would certainly pacify them, once they get the importance of what we are doing for them, they will be a lot easier to trust.

Oh, and again: I don't mind giving them the opportunity to choose on timing: if we tell them it is going to take 50 turns with 2 slaves, 35 with 4, they can decide when they want it. For this project, I wouldn't mind starting on it right now, but that is not going to happen: they need to build those 2 slaves first.

Last remark: it would be impossible for them to do it alone if we settle #1 (in the desert, covering most of the fp tiles in the city view). The fastest their worker is going to reach it is 12 turns, which they both can't risk now, certainly not as we could block his access while we get a city plopped down there.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

(1) In one of the close-ups, it's clear that the tile by the chokepoint is salt water, not fresh water. The land on the right side is not connected. Whether they might have fresh water elsewhere is, of course, another issue.

(2) I recall reading a post that looked pretty definitive that workers are immune from disease. Also, with how many turns we've all had workers clearing jungles in all our various games, we would have seen it if it were possible, right?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
(2) I recall reading a post that looked pretty definitive that workers are immune from disease. Also, with how many turns we've all had workers clearing jungles in all our various games, we would have seen it if it were possible, right?

I'm pretty sure I had seen this before in my games, but memory doesn't serve sometimes. Like other questions we've answered (Flood Plains, chopped Forest), I would like to know the answer for certain.


Dominae

[zeit]

Our price should be higher than 2 slaves, more like 4-5 at the lowest, and even than we won't commit them all for the project. We must gain something from the very start- and that should be slaves to work our fields, or land (them compromising), or tech (although they probably won't have much to offer, but still). Think big on this one- we are talking about irrigating their homeland- this is a tremendous boost for them, especially given the fact that they are low on land- they need to bring up pop quickly, even if they settled everywhere they can.

[nbarclay]

Assuming we get Writing by the time the deal goes through, contact with the other team Vox has met might be something we'd want as part of the terms of the deal.

So far, there are four situations I can think of where arranging to provide Vox with water could make good sense. (1) If we're about to take them out, so it's really our lands they'll be improving. (2) If we decide on a partnership instead of trying to take them out. (3) If we can arrange for them to settle one or two fewer cities toward us in exchange for water to help their core get bigger. (4) If they're willing to pay and commit enough workers early enough that it will have an indirect result of reducing the number of cities they can build in our direction, thereby allowing us to claim more land.

By the way, I still think it makes sense to have Vox workers under Vox control be the ones who clear the jungle and build a road through it to meet us (unless we have cities in the part of the jungle in question by the time we make a deal). If that frees up the workers they give us (assuming that's part of the deal) to work on our projects sooner, is that a bad thing?

One last interesting tidbit: anything water can get through, war chariots can get through.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
One last interesting tidbit: anything water can get through, war chariots can get through.

Wait a second. I thought the "fresh water project" was a trick to get the jungle cleared for our WCs all along. You mean we're actually considering giving them water?!?!



But honestly, tesions will rise before this project ever gets completed. The more tiles Vox improves for us, the better.


Dominae

[Meshelic]

Water rights are an expensive project for us to undertake, particularly if we seek a friendly status with the Voxians.

Due to the recent treatment of us by the Vox (delay of responses, threatening warrior postures), I don't believe we should carry this out.

Let's keep the water to ourselves. Let their growth be minimized, we owe them nothing.

Meshelic

[DeepO]

I still think that if possible, we shuld hurry up to propose it, and maybe even using an increasing price: Sure, they can wait 15 turns, but then it will cost them a minimum of 3 slaves. After 30 turns from now, maybe 4?
BTW: if they want to commit more workers, to minimize duration by improving from their side: please let them. They more workers they commit, the less they will grow.

This would seem to fit many demands:
- limiting their growth (early on especially).
- fast progress, which frees us from later leftover deals we have to finish before going to war
- 'let them pay for our improvements' deal: at least the first half of the project we would do anyway. WCs can reach the capital.
- build trust, at least for a certain amount of time. We wouldn't gain by attacking them now and we should get time to expand peacefully, and to balance our defense.

But, we should hear from them first if they are interested...

DeepO

[Arrian]

Nathan,

That's exactly why I liked this idea when SR first brought it up.

IIRC, this was my proposed method:

1) Get 1-2 slaves from Vox, on the condition that the only work they do is irrigate or chop jungle to get the water through. Any other work would be a violation of the agreement.

2) Assign 1 Stormian worker to road and help chop jungle.

3) Once we get up to the jungle, we could offer to let a couple of their workers through (ROP, essentially) to help chop and speed things up. This assumes that we grab the jungle in our REX phase, which may not be the case... but in that case, this idea is even more powerful. It gives them a reason to chop the jungle and open themselves up to invasion.

Too early to make specific plans, I know. We need to see where our expansion meets theirs, and go from their.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Again, it is not too early. The earlier, the better. We won't lose too much, but Vox loses a lot of growth. And we can use what is irrigated and roaded to get our expansion going.

DeepO