Turn 30

[Harovan]

Yes, but given they agreed to the in-game deal, we have:

- either to reject the offer, putting Bronze Working back on 100% (it would not be justified to wait longer)
- or to accept it, in which case we can switch to Alphabet at 100%.

Note however, that if we reject it, there will hardly be another deal, at least in the near future. They want a promise, we currently are saying "we don't intend to attack you, but we can't promise it". If they agree on this, fine, but I doubt they will. We could try it, ok. But I still don't know what to do (which if the options above I shall choose) if the turn comes to us, and that is what this thread is about.

[nbarclay]

Message posted, received, and BetaHound sent a very quick note back that it's under discussion. (It looks like BetaHound has automatic notification of PMs on now.)

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Sir Ralph, I've asked them to include you on their reply, so if they give a clear yes or no, our course of action should be clear. If they come back with anything complicated, hopefully, we'll get the save late enough that either I'll be back up again or waiting for me won't cause problems. (I just checked the turn thread and Dissident was last to post there.)

Nathan

[DeepO]

Sir Ralph: my idea is that you should accept the deal should it come, not depending of their acceptance already. Start on alphabet immediately.

We asked for a 2 tier deal, and I still value that proposal. But, it really is time to show them good will, so lets go ahead with the less beneficial trade now, and ask for the more expensive on later on. All tension will not be resolved in the next few turns, and we can't hold forever. We can have alphabet ready, and be on our way to mapmaking or literature when they decide to share IW with us... plus, I'm sure some kind of promise or deal of non-aggression can be worked out, once the pressure is a bit off...

And if it would fail, I still don't mind to trade the wheel for BW. With each tech they gain, it will become harder to research something on their own, as costs go up. as much as possible, we should make a world wide attempt to get those cheap techs distributed asap, as we are the ones who will for the longest time be able to keep up in research spending. Vox, without river, and with poor land, is not going to research much the coming years anyway, not if it takes them over 20 turns to complete the smallest tech.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

If we research Alphabet without a promise of Iron Working in return, we leave a window where they could very likely attack us with immortals if they want to and we'd have a very hard time defending ourselves. And frankly, I also don't like the idea of rewarding them for rejecting our two-stage offer by giving them a trade that's clearly in their favor instead.

Nathan

[zeit]

Those Vox keep suprising us, don't they? they twist and turn so we can't get a proper view on their intentions. They clearly don't trust us anymore than we trust them as they have fears that they are trading away valuable mil. tech, for peacetime ones, despite the fact that they realize that without tech trades they are out of the tech race for sure.

I also like to remind you- don't let pity or you need for poetic justice to be made affect your judgement, cracks in the Voxian wall of extroverted toughness are beginning to appear- we must not have idea of giving them things which they didn't ask for and seem right for us- like withdrawing, just because they have accpeted a fair trade offer. We must use delay tactics in our conflict over the lands south of the Isthmus, stall for as long as possible (as they did with us, deliberately or not, it doesn't matter), while we take advantage of our growing economy to make Vox have to accept the facts- that we grow faster than them that we will seize the prime spots on this continents, and that they won't have an easy strawl just because they had some bad luck with their starting position.

But we must remember to always have an option for them besides confclict, if we push them to the corner- we are into a hell of a fight- if they have nothing to lose, they will fight to the death, and we will take a beating along with their demise. I am talking about trades like the one we are about to strike, and some promise of peaceful coexistence- with hints on us being more forgiving if they settle along the isthmus- but only to some extent, as our interest are clear on this matter (I think, and hope).

[Harovan]

Turn is here. Tim has been withdrawn north. Willy disappeared, most likely went north too. VC offers Bronze Working for The Wheel, but failed to "accept" the deal. So if we accept it, it still takes their turn to acknowledge the deal. That means, they still could refuse it. That's pure theory, I doubt they will, but anyway.

EotS grew to size 4 and after we set the laborers as intended (3 irrigated floodplains + 1 irrigated fur), it will grow again in 2 turns. Hurricane will be switched to the free irrigated fur tile. A check moving Gronk out-in EotS shows, that we have 4 content citizens without any MP, hence the difficulty dropped to Chieftain indeed. I propose to withdraw Grog 3 and Slash 2. So it doesn't look like a blockade.

Proposal on warrior move:
Hack follows Tim north (8). So does Ouch with Willy (9). Crush goes back to Hurricane. There will be a new warrior ready next turn, who will move to EotS in order to babysit the settler.

Economic changes as described. Don't know, what to do with the half-ready deal and with research.

Where are my advisors?

[Shiber]

Regarding the deal, can't we just switch to alphabet and get this over with? If we finish Alphabet and there still won't be any sign of an end to this, we can research BW ourselves.
Vox wants to stall our research, and they're using their now-standard delaying tactics. Let's not let them use us.

[Shiber]

Edit: nevermind.

[alva]

Agreed, accept the deal and let's get on with it.

[Harovan]

Team scores:

59 (+1) Gathering Storm
68 (+2) Demogyptica
60 (0) Glory of War
64 (+1) Role Play
58 (0) Vox Controli
52 (0) Lux Invicta
65 (+2) Legoland

[zeit]

As for the tech deal- Agreed. But on the warriors issue- we have no reason to withdraw our incomplete blockade, we don't block them anyway. If they want to pass, let them ask for it (we have stopped exploring a long while ago, so we actually honor their request to stop exploring), then we will take our time, tell them that our diplomat has gone fishing (much like when BetaHound was "tired"...) and the like, if they seem agitated than we can withdraw, and have that the 2-tile wide grassland our temporary border.

[Harovan]

Ok, let's show good will and trust them. Trade deal accepted and sent back. Eli and Dissident will be PMd and reminded to accept the deal. Research set to Alphabet at 100%.

Movement:
Grog moves 3, Slash 2. Since they withdraw, we show goodwill as well. Hack follows Tim 8, and Ouch follows Willy 9. Crush goes 2, back to Hurricane.

Economy:
EotS grows to size 4. 3 citizens on irrigated floodplain, 1 on irrigated fur plain, next growth in 2 turns, but currently only 3 shields per turn. Laborer in Hurricane switched to the other irrigated fur plain. Worker finished irrigation and starts road.

Power has gone again in their favor, 2nd turn in a row. Screenshots will include zoom, power, F11 and the EotS city view.

Everyone happy? I hope so, I want to go to bed.

[zeit]

I think withdrawing Slash and Grog was a mistake, i have stated that we pose no real threat, or put a blockade for that matter, we have no reason to withdraw, except implying that we already recognize that territory as Voxian- which is wrong IMHO- our war (if there will be one) will revolve around land, and every square inch counts. Every grassland tile is a blessing for the Voxians, who seem to be low on food (or so we think).

[Harovan]

Zeit: We will leave one warrior there around, the other goes back to another outlook. No reason to keep up an anyway incomplete blockade.

Turn done, will be sent shortly.