DIPLO: comments on Rollplay log

[OPD]

The fact is that GOW and ND are a threat to them. Would it really be a smart move for them to attack us when the UU's are coming up. Our units would be busy with vox but they'd still need to take alot of units which they're probably going to need on bob.

Perhaps them having alot of defence is plausible but still not reliable.

ND wanting to chat. Maybe they want us to not join the RP side if they attack them.

[vulture]

GoW and ND are a threat to them if they form an alliance, much as RP and ND are a threat to GoW, and (even more so) RP and GoW are a threat to ND if they form an alliance. A lot of the freedom of movement of the Bob civs is determined by what alliances they have with each other, and more importantly, how much they trust each other.

That aside, I doubt many people here would be in favour of joining RP against ND, so a non-agression deal with ND shouldn't pose a problem - I'd be in favour of it.

[Arrian]

I'd love to work out an deal with ND to beat up on RP.

But I DO think that GodKing has a point: the real threat is Lego. Not that Lego is going to go on a rampage conquering people, but they're in a strong position and the longer they are left alone, the stronger they get.

-Arrian

[OPD]

Originally posted by vulture
That aside, I doubt many people here would be in favour of joining RP against ND, so a non-agression deal with ND shouldn't pose a problem - I'd be in favour of it.

Me too.
Although if it were 2 against 1 on bob it would be better for us, if we could win, to join the 1. 2 allies sharing the whole of bob would be trouble for us where as one civ and us with some bobian land would be a much better arrangement. However recent events have pretty much ruled this out.

[OPD]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd love to work out an deal with ND to beat up on RP.

But I DO think that GodKing has a point: the real threat is Lego. Not that Lego is going to go on a rampage conquering people, but they're in a strong position and the longer they are left alone, the stronger they get.

-Arrian

Perhaps we could make a deal with ND to help beat up RP if they helped us beat up lego later on or even at the same time.

[vulture]

Is there something to be said for researching chivalry ourselves, to trade to RP in the event of a GoW+ND war against them? It wouldn't necessarily hurt relations with either of them (it is essentially what GoW has just done to us) and works in our favour by promoting stalemate, much as having Vox put up a good fight works in everyone's favour except ours.

[OPD]

Spoke to bigfree, E_T and togas last night.
Got a pm out of the blue and just turned up so was a bit unsure about things.

A few things I noted.

- RP chat all the time ingroup.
- They have set up a channel for future comms.
- Vox were their long term partners
- With them gone they are looking for a replacement
- They want to trade lux.
- I dwelt a bit too much on the vox - RP trade situation. May have pissed them off a bit. But they strenuously deny helping vox.
- After trading luxs we could move on to some sort of tech deal

[vulture]

Some thoughts on RP:

right now, it is quite plausible that they genuinely want a strong alliance with us. In their position, they have lost a good trading partner. They also have evidence that we have a good military going, and may well have info from Vox on the amount of galleys we can bring to bear. They know we can reach them quickly by galley. They might be worried about a GoW/ND alliance attacking from the north, and in view of the above know that they'll have to keep a good defense along their east coast as well, weakening them.

On the other hand, a good alliance with us would give them a replacement trade partner (with the biggest population - so lots of cash or tech potential), and allow them to concentrate their defenses more on their northern borders, making them stronger against a potential GoW/ND invasion. They have a lot of good reasons why they need us to be friendly at the moment, and they know that we have hostility and suspicions regarding them (unfounded or not), so they have to be worried that we have better relations with ND or GoW, and will leave RP facing a three-pronged attack.

[ManicStarSeed]

Posted in 2 places....

Speaking as MoDA;
I read the chat log and I am not pleased with the way the chat went. I specificaly stated ...

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed

I hope this galley is just mapping a trade route. Maybe this will help us avoid having to trade our WM.
We should bring it up in discussions with RP. As long as it is a single galley, I have no issues letting it through our costal waters. ...

Granted we have an invasion going on, and we do not want any interfearance with our timetables. All we needed to do is give RP the go ahead on the condition that they coordinate with us over the next 2 or 3 turns so that it does not interfear with our landings. Maybe expect some royalties from their map sales....

[rant]
edited as I missread the log and realize that we have not made any official requests
[/rant]


If I am seeming abrasive and acting like a control freak it is because I am trying to balance the diplomatic arena and change the way others view us. I said that I have ideas and I am trying to guide the general process. I wish I was there so that I could have put quabash of the whole issue. We have more important things to discuss, like our trade deals, what to do about Lego, a new home for Vox, Tech trading, Bob Politics.

[politicaly incorrect]
dont sweat the petty stuff, pet the swetty stuff...
[/politicaly incorrect]

Your choice, trade world maps in the next 100 years orso, or let RP scout our coasts. We need to thaw relations and this can really help, but not if we act parinoid and secrative. We can hold back information. We can not give the impression that we are.

Also, we DO NOT CARE about Lego's policies, only our own. Let Lego look like the lone wolf, not us.

Is it really that big of a deal that RP wants to scout our coasts? Security might dictate it (It saved us with Vox), but how secure are we when we create friction with all the other nations over small issues. We will gain some trust, appreciation and finally RP will believe us that we are on a large island (small continent). It is worth the small price of "lost security" when you consider that we can then say.."see, we told you" ..then redirect the focus on lego...

We need to make some consessions in order to improve our relations. This is a small one.

We need to be a little more gracious folks.

Mss

[ManicStarSeed]

dp

[zeit]

I also don't think we should hold back RP from scouting, we could even trade our map, I really don't mind that much at this point. It was RP's reply of "no big deal" that needed further attention IMHO, as a chance to create understanding.

I didn't mind them scouting, but they didn't know the situation as we know- and Togas showed complete lack of understanding to what quite possibly is a problem for us, after our discussion, I tend to believe this has changed somewhat.

[FrustratedPoet]

Do we have any definitive answer on whether the RP galleys will hinder our war plans this turn? Was Togas right when he said that there was no place the galley could finish it's turn that could force us to expend extra movement points by going around them?

[Aeson]

Unless they are willing to sink in a Sea tile, they can't block us this next turn from going anywhere of note.

[Arrian]

I just read the log.

[rant]
**** Togas. I really don't like that guy.
[/rant]

Anyway, what the hell is so wrong with wanting to keep our map to ourselves? Personally, I don't see why scouting our coastline is something they can assume is a-ok, and act all shocked when we have reservations about it! That's OUR territory, damnit.

I'm not concerned about them landing troops from that scout galley now. I'm concerned about what could happen 50 turns from now, with our map information disseminated to the world.

I simply do not believe that they cannot understand our point of view on this matter. Therefore, logically, they are simply playing dumb in order to get what they want: knowledge of our coastline (which, as I have stated previously, is most of our nation, and gives up the locations of our iron sources, good landing zones, etc).

I know we're trying to improve relations with other teams, but is it worth the security risk? As far as I can see, Togas is always gonna have a chip on his shoulder w/regard to us, and since he basically runs RP, no amount of bowing and scraping by us is going to fix that.

Therefore, I'm inclined to deny them permission to scout our coast, and inform them that an attempt to do so will result in 1 sunken RP galley.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

As said elsewhere, I think it's time for us to trade our maps. Astronomy is a couple techs away, and even if we tried to keep our coasts clear militarily, it would end with Caravels (absolutely no offensive capability in that timeframe).

Lets get something for our map, and let everyone see we're the runt (Vox doesn't count much anymore) of the litter, not the top dog. We have the units to block off good landing sites, and besides, the 'best' ones (our coastal Iron Mountains) are already visable.