War or Peace?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Give DeepO a lot of the credit for my conversion toward favoring a peaceful route. His persistence shook me out of a militaristic rut my thinking was getting caught in.

You're welcome And it's always good to convert someone to the light side

I agree with getting mapmaking fast, of course, and I generally think that route is going to have a lot of bonusses. For our military purposes (which we absolutely do not have to forget, Vox will be conquered if I have any vote in this!), catapults should be reconsidered: so far I have seen no comments on it. Personally, I believe they will save the day in our situation: we will get, after expansion, a lot of cities, and a lot of production. Further, we will need to concentrate much of that force on one point only: the Neck. This is ideal for bombardment... (which will also provide some covering fire against counterattacking immortals).

As to which tech to research: I don't know. BW seems best, if only to push the Voxians in using immortals if they decide to attack us. IW would be nice too, but I'd try to trade that, if possible. Once we get there, we should have a lot more insight in our diplomatic stance to Vox, which could still be very tradeable.

The comment of us trading with Vox will not necessarily be a bad thing, it will give Vox more techs then us, but speed up general research in our area, which in turn favors us is a very valid one. Think about it: if the research pace increases, the civs with most research will benefit most. And who is that? Us. And it will get worse for the other teams: if we get the chance to expand peacefully, eventually building libraries everywhere, no warring civ can catch us

DeepO

[Arrian]

"I like this plan. I'm excited to be a part of it. Let's do it!" - Ghostbusters.

BW, IW, beeline for MM.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

If we don't break free through the isthmus, it's probably our only chance to keep halfway up in tech. Not that we'll able to trade when we finally met the other civ(s). We won't have anything to trade, I'm pretty sure, at least no tech. But as many contacts as possible will make our own research cheaper.

I have to propose a compromise: What about starting research with Alphabet, and during research to try to get at least BW from VC, say, for The Wheel. If this succeeds, we either try to trade Alphabet for IW (if they still need it, that is...) or research it ourselves at reduced cost. At least during Alphabet nothing bad can happen with us. And we won time for our diplomatic effort.

[DeepO]

Sir Ralph, I proposed that a few days ago, and still like it. But the same arguments I heared then still apply: the wheel seems a very good pay for BW, too good to be true. And most likely, while BW will not be tradeable, the wheel is.

I agree on alphabet though, but if possible I would let them know we are going for it, and ask if they would be interested in trading it for IW. If Civ X is expansionist, they won't, and neither when Vox is reseaching it themselves (on route for literature).

Note that the GL is a very possible goal for Vox, if they would decide to remain isolationist. We were thinking on it ourselves because we thought to be isolated, but all we imagined for ourselves does now apply to Vox. (apart from the superb production, and relative ease of setting a wondercity apart).

Damn... another insight for the Vox's View thread... will be updated later on.

DeepO

[Conqueror]

Alphabet would sound a good option to research first, now when thinking about it more: Vox might just be willing to trade the BW to Wheel. Or has this been proposed to them yet ? Diplomats ?

[DeepO]

No tech trade proposal yet, Conqueror. So far, the board thought that the wheel would be too expensive for BW. I proposed earlier to let Grog pass + BW in exchange for the wheel... if they go for that, I'd be pleased (hell, I'd give them the wheel in return for a possible contact to Civ X)

DeepO

[Arrian]

Wheel plus something (like Grog passing) for BW is ok. A straight trade is a loss for us, because The Wheel is a more valueable tech.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Same here. I think we should propose this deal to them.

[Harovan]

They will never accept to let Grog through. Not for the difference between Wheel (4) and BW (3). Maybe for the Wheel itself, but even this I doubt. You can try it but it's almost hopeless. We could try to see if they are interested, though. I can propose them The Wheel in the game, after the next turn is done, and wait to see what they'll offer in return. If they offer BW, we still might respond, well, it's a bit short... what about... etc., but at least they have shown to be interested in trade. Even if they disagree to let Grog through, we could say that they still owe us the difference. That means they'd have to pay it back and we might try to get IW (6) for Alphabet (5). A straight trade proposal Wheel/BW+passage would earn us a "No" and the negotiations would be over.

[alva]

Have we heard anything on our previous PM yet?, we should wait and see what their answer is to that one, before sending a new deal.

[Harovan]

PMs are slow and unreliable, at least when they are directed to BetaHound. I can propose it in the game through the diplo screen, and it will reach the players in time. They'd be forced either to decline it, or to propose their side of the deal.

[DeepO]

Sir Ralph, that's a good idea, but please do it with an accompanying PM (to betahound, if we have to deal with him, otherwise to someone else). No need to get rude ourselves, but expressing that we aren't happy with their reluctance to be polite to us is something we need to do.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

What I would propose is a two-stage deal: First The Wheel for Bronze Working and then, once we get Alphabet, Alphabet for Iron Working. That would involve equal value in techs on both sides, and Vox could likely still come out ahead on the deal by trading one or both of the techs to our mysterious third party. (Of course that assumes they don't already have Alphabet or plans in the works to get it.)

Nathan

[nbarclay]

I still think that against immortals on flat terrain, cost for cost, WCs are better units than swordsmen. Individually, they're inferior, but the fact that most of the immortals that beat the first WC will still have to survive a second makes a huge difference. (Remember, somewhere close to half the immortals will lose to that first WC.) The one exception would be if the immortal army has significantly more shields' worth of units, but then the war is probably lost no matter which unit the defender has for his preemptive strike.

But I do see one aspect to our having Iron Working that would have to give Vox pause if they consider an attack. With Iron Working, every warrior we have becomes a potential swordsman, and that's in addition to the units we build from scratch.

[Harovan]

So shall I send propose The Wheel in the diplo screen next turn, before they trade it with somebody else and we lose the opportunity? I think a decision is urgent.