Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[Dominae]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
...we could strike a molotov-ribbenhoff pact with them or something.

Sounds cool; what is it?


Dominae

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dominae


Sounds cool; what is it?


Dominae

Thats the Germany-USSR agreement to partition Poland.

[Theseus]

Keep it simple... I like what Nathan wrote back (although not sure why he included the Alphabet).

Let's stay on the present path. The three-civ trading alliance is a possibility, as long as we keep our future open for either an alliance against Vox or simply going after them on our own.

Two interesting notes:

1) We now have definitive proof that Vox are "known liars and cheats." Our diplos should be thinking up ways to use that in the future.

2) Kudos to Soren, if he's still reading this forum... this reminds me a lot of SP diplomacy. Not the same issues, obviously, but the care with which we must manage diplo relations.

[nbarclay]

Vox's neighbor to the north almost has to be Lux. We need to send a message to Lux asking if they are willing to confirm our suspicions and, if so, attempting to open direct contact with them regarding Vox's proposals. Is the ambassador to Lux around? If not, I'd be willing to send a message.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
Keep it simple... I like what Nathan wrote back (although not sure why he included the Alphabet).

I had two reasons to include Alphabet in my offer:

1) Vox's monopoly on contacts is very valuable, and including Alphabet makes giving up that monopoly a little more worthwhile.

2) If Vox gets Alphabet from us, Civ X can't profit from selling it to them (and perhaps, in turn, use the profit in a way that would help still more of our rivals).

If Vox looked like a more serious long-term competitor, I would have been less inclined to include Alphabet in the offer. But as it is, I view other civs, not Vox, as our serious long-term competition.

Nathan

[Shiber]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Thats the Germany-USSR agreement to partition Poland.

I understand that there are reports confirming the fact that they were planning to partition more than just Poland, but the whole of Europe.
Anyway, the Commies should have known better than to trust Hitler, even though they had little choice. They rushed to an agreement with the only power that would talk to them... whereas we don't trust Vox at all, and often times assume that they are lying, and we're looking for a possible new ally in Civ X. Good for us!

[Shiber]

I like where this is going. We were worried about being behind in research because some of the other teams have multiple research partners, but soon we may have two, and we'll probably be the leading researchers.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by nbarclay
As I recall, they never said no water, just no rivers. I would classify that as misdirection more than deception,

True... bad choice of words. But I would ask for it, for two reasons: 1) we know if the aquaduct plan can work, 2) call them to reveal what is really going on in their territory.

I think you gave them a very precise map of our surroundings, more then they have given us. Time to do something back.

Re: Vox city spacing: I more or less agree with your analysis, which basically says that road already has 8 possible sites connected, or very close to being connected.The 5th city near lookout ridge would make sense to me, and if they stick to that everything is fine. But their 4th city could easily be placed at #12 too... with the road it only takes 2 turns more to reach it. Of course, it won't be the best strategy in the long term, as corruption only gets worse, but surely would annoy the hell out of me, if they use that city to poprush a barracks, and upgrade their 'scouts' to wreck some of our border cities.

Dominae: No, I'm not the diplo head, and don't want to be either. From the time Meshelic needed to divert attention elsewhere, we are headless. But, so far it seems to be going good, we never had to make very strict decisions, and I think that in case such are needed, the ultimate reponsibility is with Sir Ralph.

That said, I believe the ambassador to a civ needs to have certain rights, and responsibilities. One of those is to make rapid decisions if needed, certainly concerning sending PMs, even up to the point of discussing trades, seeing what is possible on the other team, and after a possible deal was negotiated propose it to both teams for final approval. Ambassadors are in the first place negotiators, although Betahound doesn't really fit that description.

So, in respect to this last PM from Nathan, I fully support his decision to offer it, which does not say anything about whether I agree with what he proposed or not. I do agree, that we should start to more clearly define what an abmassador can and can't do, but asking about proposed trades, voicing personal opinions is certainly something I consider part of the job (and people better tell me I can't do it with RPG and the Legos now if they don't want it, or I asssume it permissable)

Oh, and I really agree on the attitude of Vox, leaving everything to the last minute. We have done our best to get deals to them in a matter that leaves them time to discuss, and they aren't that polite with us. That is no reason to do the same to them, we should only improve our consideration of their problems, but we certainly can ask them to uphold some kind of protocol, or at least consideration to us.

In this same respect, maybe it is good to make the messages to betahound easier to read. As said, I appreciate the diplomatic language, but betahound doesn't seem to think the same way. Why not include the normal message, and then a schematic, point per point plan of what we want to convey with the message (something like: 1) we proposed a deal on alphabet. 2) you give IW and accept 3) next turn, we're happy again.)

Nathan, why are you certain of Lux? They are a strong possibility, but I still see other possibilities... quite a lot of them, actually. Some explaining, please?

In general, there is one point that is bothering me: we are giving too much to Vox. No way are they going to get another deal out of us, we need IW, they promised it to us. Backing out now is treason. We feel strong about this, they should know we do. Other deals can be discussed, but they need to hurry up... writing for their contacts (all their contacts at that time) sounds good, after that we don't need them for research anymore, I'm sure we can find a better tech trade partner. But, if it would pacify them, we can propose another deal: they go for another tech, and so do we, which we promise to trade with them when the time comes. At equal value... no more gifts to Vox, they are draining us. Oh, and I still don't see what use it has to them to deny trades with the best researcher in the game, I can't see any reason for it as they know we'll get another partner easily. Point out to Vox that we will get to our techs anyway, and they can choose to work with us, or not.

DeepO

[Dominae]

If Nathan is the ambassador to Vox (which DeepO's seems to be implying) then I retract all my recent comments about diplomacy, and proceed to feel supremely dumb.

Even so, I wish the diplomats would have a chance to talk things over a bit. Hopefully other teams will be more gracious towards us and therefore internally give us a chance to do this.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
If Nathan is the ambassador to Vox (which DeepO's seems to be implying) then I retract all my recent comments about diplomacy, and proceed to feel supremely dumb.

Even so, I wish the diplomats would have a chance to talk things over a bit. Hopefully other teams will be more gracious towards us and therefore internally give us a chance to do this.

Think of me as a special envoy to Vox regarding trades and related matters. I've never officially taken over as ambassador, but for practical purposes, I've been filling that role for some time now.

[Harovan]

Regarding their newest message:

We want Iron Working now, and if they don't want to keep their promise, we will have to research it ourselves. Their "tiers" don't bother us, every tech has a cost. Wheel for Bronze was a loss for us, Writing for Iron would be a second. True, gifting Warrior Code to us would even this out, but in this case we would receive Iron Working only after we researched Writing, which is completely inacceptable.

Also we should ask them, why we should believe them, after they betrayed us once. (Find nicer words, but let the fact remain)

[asleepathewheel]

So its Lux, then, that they are in contact with. Was that a slip of the tongue? Mwahahaha. Beta's replacement is as careless as Beta was tactless.


What is this tier bull****. We made this agreement many turns ago, they should not change the bargain now.

[DeepO]

True, we need IW now, but I don't believe they are going to risk not trading it with us. Jon Miller's last notes make it obvious that they are accepting that we are doing better then them (better start pos, my ass... we played for this!), he knows he has to get us in that partnership or the game is over for them.

I wouldn't delay our own research any longer, and go ahead on writing. IW will come, but maybe it is going to take a few more delaying turns from them.

What was very interesting is that they offer us IW now, only if, in 15 turns or so, we give them writing. They trust us! (very important news, that they are more or less convinced we will honor our agreements no matter what). Of course, this also means that they know we aren't going to rush them, and they know they aren't going to rush us. That last offer was more or less a non-agression pact for a limited duration.

I fully agree on keeping to our initial agreement, we agreed on this earlier (both teams), we procede. If their situation changes, too bad, we don't have to take that into account. They had better thought about that earlier.

Let me get this straight:
1) Vox has BW, and is researching IW. They somehow get CB (possibly from hut). They aren't in a good shape, commerce-wise
2) We come along, and offer the wheel for BW immediately, and IW for writing later.
3) Vox trades for IW, wasting research at that point (not a very bright thing to do). Because they are going to waste research, Civ X agrees to give it to them for something 'cheap'... perfect tech to trade: the wheel. Civ X and Vox aren't worried, as they can't reach the other with units now anyhow, so both knowing horses and iron on the map is more important. Note that the waste was completely on their part, we had nothing to do with it
4) Now Vox complains that alphabet is easier for them to get, and that IW costs more... 'forgetting' about this deal being part in a 2x2 tech deal. Further, they complain about lost research..

5) but in fact, what really happened is that our wheel was used for their IW, which they trade again for us for alphabet. They only gave bronzeworking, to get 3 techs, which have served their life as tradeable techs. Sure they can get upset about it, but never do we give in to altering the plan, that whould make us look like complete idiots. You can't blame them from trying, though

6) of course, their problems come from underestimating us in our research pace, and underestimating the importance of getting IW sooner... they're already on the way on their next research, possibly even on writing. If they have to switch now (as it is obvious we will get it first if we race for it), it will be another problem for them.

DeepO

[Harovan]

We need ironworking now. We need to know, where is iron. Zeits remark about the long road being an iron connecting road and suddenly renewed their claim to settle down till the Spinebreakers could really mean, that there's an iron deposit, which might be the only one in our part of the world. We could remain without iron, if we research writing now.

Send notes, demand, threaten, but get us iron working now. Or else we have to research it on our own, before we begin to research writing. This delays their research as well. Tell them, that we can be either their partners or their competitors and ask what they think is better for them. If they don't give IW now, the deal is void, as is the promise of peaceful intent.

[nbarclay]

Proposed response to Vox:

I don't mean to offend, but such an obsessiion with tier 2 vs. tier 1 seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics. Alphabet, cost 5 in the editor, is the most expensive of the tier 1 techs. It costs two and a half times as much as Pottery or Ceremonial Burial, and only one sixth less than Iron Working. The original deal was deliberately balanced so that each side would contribute techs with a total cost of 9 in the editor to the exchange. And if that was not sufficient for you, you should have brought up the tier 2 vs. tier 1 issue when we were negotiating the original deal.

Yes, Iron Working and Writing are both tier 2 techs, but Iron Working is only cost 6, while Writing is cost 8. So in your revised proposal, you would be getting the more expensive tech out of both deals.

And while throwing in Warrior Code would balance the values, (aside from our 12 wasted gold from abandoning our Bronze Working research), that is not what we really want. What we really want is contact so that we aren't stuck with you playing middleman where any equal-value tech deal we make with you gives you the opportunity to gain extra profit selling or trading to your other neighbor. Under such circumstances, nominally equal trades are very heavily in your favor. (For example, I can't help but wonder whether you might have traded The Wheel, which you got from us, in order to get Iron Working earlier than you would have otherwise. If so, BetaHound's contention that the deal favored us is completely laughable.)

And your inclination to seek to renegotiate agreements that have already been made only serves to make the situation worse. Even if we make an agreement, can we trust you to keep it? And do we really want to have all of our trade deals filter through a neighbor we are not entirely sure we can trust?

I still see a lot of promise in the possibility of a three-way partnership, but it would have to be a true partnership of equals, not an arrangement where all trades have to go through Vox as middleman. If you attempt to insist on maintaining your "middleman" status, even in the face of offers that would give you significant value in return for giving it up, you might profit temporarily, but the consequences regarding our desire to maintain a long-term trade relationship with you once that monopoly on contact is broken will be catastrophic. That is all the more true in light of the possibility that had you not blocked Grog's exploration earlier, he might have been able to make contact with the other civilization long ago.

Basically, at this point, you have three choices. You can go through with your original agreement. You can accept our new offer (or perhaps come up with a counter-offer we regard as similarly acceptable, although I can't imagine our going for anything that doesn't address the contact situation), in which case your willingness to give up contact will be counted in your favor in future negotiations. Or you can break the deal outright by demanding renegotiation on terms not truly acceptable to us, in which case even if we accept some sort of deal, you will have destroyed all hope for any kind of partnership that lasts beyond the minute we break your stranglehold on contact.

My apologies if this is not worded as diplomatically as it could be, but I want to make sure you understand the truth of the situation. Yes, you might profit in the short term by forcing us to accept a deal we don't like (assuming we don't just give up on dealing with you altogether), but you need to be fully aware of the long-term price that would come from such a choice.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist