Turn 23

[nbarclay]

One thing we may need to watch for is if Vox doesn't give us an answer about not heading farther into each other's territory right away but does hold their lead warrior where he is. If they do that, I would suggest that Grog also stay put this turn so they don't feel like we're taking unfair advantage of their gesture..

Nathan

[Randolph]

I definitely agree with the workers . Either 2 or 3 depending on tests. They should certainly be built in EotS because of workers high pop. to shields ratio.

[DeepO]

Not exactly for next turn, but something to keep in mind: when I was testing the pyramids, chopping the forest gave the shields to EotS, even if Hurricane was closer (but it was building a wonder, and couldn't use the extra shields). If this same thing happens now, we might need something else to build in EotS. If so, I would vote for a temple, which should be built in 3 turns + 2 chops, giving us a bit of time to grow some more, not wasting shields on settlers we don't have pop for.

2 extra advantages: we might avoid to need to settle #7, as our cutlure would increase, and secondly, we can do something about that early culture, because I find it disturbing that so far nothing gets planned culturally. I'm not saying we need to build a temple before 2500 BC, but we should start planning on building something early. Vox is not our main problem culturally, which should give us some breathing room, but I rather have some safety wrt other teams as well.

DeepO

[Dominae]

I'm must disagree with the Worker idea. Setting up cities is more important than building up infrastructure at this point. I ran a test run with Eye producing nothing but Settlers as quickly as possible (with all other cities either producing Warriors or Temples, apart from Hurricane which built a Barracks), and expansion was absurdly fast. Even a couple of pop points lost to disease did not slow things down much. A nice side-effect of this plan was that Eye and Hurricane did not compete too fiercely for tiles, since Eye was usually between size 2 and 4.

If we want to start building WCs immediately (which I recommend against), then clearly we'll need to put a Worker on the Horses. Connecting all the cities to the trade network is not really necessary at this point, since at Regent we do not really need the Luxuries all that much. The military road network to the North probably will not be used very much. Corruption will remain low because all our cities are aroud our more or less central core.

So, I propose: zero Workers until sites 1, 3, 4 and 7 have been settled. Cities 3, 4 and 7 have good enough tiles to be able to be respectably productive without Worker action. City 1 will share a Flood Plain and a (chopped) Fur tile with Eye and Hurricane, which the Worker will need to start on. If the Worker moves 7-9-3 and performs all relevant actions (chop, road, etc.), our three core cities will be connected and nicely productive. Thoughts?

Oh, Sir Ralph, would you mind including along with the normal set of screenshots a shot of Eye of the Storm's city view?


Dominae

[Randolph]

It's going to be interesting to see how the dynamics of the culture battle will work in MP (and how important it will be). Although we don't know how valuable it will be I'd hate to be on the down side.

OTOH I'd think that the first (cultural, not overall) priority would be to build temples in cities besides EotS in order to increase their boarders to the full workable area (although I suppose with cities packed so closely most tiles will be workable).

Unfortunately with the “Vox problem” culture may need to take a back burner to economic development and unit building.

[Dominae]

Concerning Temples, I propose we pop rush them in any city that can only produce 1 Shield per turn initially, due to Corruption, but is getting 2 Food per turn. The city grows in 10 turns, and there is exactly 20 Shields left for the Temple, which can be immediately rushed.

All cities which are producing 2 or more Shields should produce Warriors, Barracks, Granaries and Settlers (when enough Food is accumulated).

The other option would be to produce Workers every ten turns. Given that we're setting up Settler/Worker pumps already, I favor the first option.


Dominae

[Randolph]

Will we need to hook up the luxuries in order to allow the one citizen to continue working after pop rush (or have a unit in the city)? If so we should make sure to fulfill one of these conditions before pop rushing.

[DeepO]

Dominae: sure, you can have a lot of cities fast, but what are those worth when they aren't good in producing shields and commerce? With one worker set aside for it, we can have #3 ready as a pump around the same time you would settle your 6th city, meaning we can quickly regain the initial city loss. 2 workers is more or less equal to 1 settler, and I'll gladly have one city less if this means we can have all our cities connected (some 15% less corruption, meaning an extra commerce if we produce 6), and all worked tiles improved.

Further, we really need a road to the North, no matter if we are going to attack Vox, need to defend, or simply need to expand. As a rough guess, it will take some 40 worker turns to get to the chokepoint with a road, so either we start very soon on it, or we need to commit multiple workers (maybe even both).

WCs might not have the highest priority (aside from battling barbs), but if we see problems coming it would be silly to only then start planning on connecting the horses. That would be much too late, as a safety issue we should do that within the next 20 turns at the latest (connecting a road, which does not necessarily mean working the city).

It might need some testing, but having 3 workers instead of 1 could very well mean we get an extra tech by the time you would have built your 6th city, certainly this is no small gain. Plus, don't forget that if you would avoid all workers, you need to double their efforts later on to catch up again. I already suspect that by the time we would have 6 cities, we should have 4 or more workers running around, I don't want 6 or more of them

DeepO

[DeepO]

Randolph, we should be okay on needed border expansions for the next few cities, most of them can work enough tiles initialy, and all tiles once the neighbouring cities are built. There are a few exceptions, of course, but very little IIRC (haven't got access to the screenshots right now).

Poprushing temples in high corruption cities is of course good, but the only problem is that in those same cities we don't have enough gold income to pa for the temple. We can only do that if we keep the core cities on a larger size, so that they will produce more commerce. It's a tactic I use a lot, but we might look out, it sometimes is tricky to balance. And in this game, the initial focus is more on researching than in my SP games, I always have too much cash, too few techs.

DeepO

[Dominae]

Originally posted by DeepO
Dominae: sure, you can have a lot of cities fast, but what are those worth when they aren't good in producing shields and commerce?

In my experience, settling is always better than building tile improvements. I would very much like to hear the results of an actual test for our game that proves me wrong.

Originally posted by DeepO
With one worker set aside for it, we can have #3 ready as a pump around the same time you would settle your 6th city, meaning we can quickly regain the initial city loss.

I do not think you're taking into account that an extra city is worth more than its Shield, Food and Gold revenue, because it acts as an extra production center. Having such a prodcution center around earlier means earlier pop-rushed Temples, earlier extra Workers and earlier units to combat Barbarians (and, perish the thought at this point, Vox). Compound this rapid appearance of production centers across all new Settlers, and I believe you've got more "purchasing" power than 3 Workers can accomplish. Again, I would like to see a test of this.

Originally posted by DeepO
2 workers is more or less equal to 1 settler,

Like I said, I believe that during REX 1 Settler is worth more than 2 Workers (maybe even around 3).

Originally posted by DeepO
and I'll gladly have one city less if this means we can have all our cities connected (some 15% less corruption, meaning an extra commerce if we produce 6),

How many cities will we have producing 6 Commerce anytime soon other than our capital? Probably around 1: Hurricane (maybe 2 with the Gold city). But these cities are close to the capital, so the 15% effect probably does not appear until much later.

Originally posted by DeepO
Further, we really need a road to the North, no matter if we are going to attack Vox, need to defend, or simply need to expand. As a rough guess, it will take some 40 worker turns to get to the chokepoint with a road, so either we start very soon on it, or we need to commit multiple workers (maybe even both).

If all goes well with Vox, the only reason we would need a Northward road would be to expand. I believe 40 Worker-turns is too big an undertaking at this point (i.e. while we're REXing) just to fulfill that purpose.

Originally posted by DeepO
Plus, don't forget that if you would avoid all workers, you need to double their efforts later on to catch up again.

This is true, but does not take into account the fact that we're going to need to double our Settler efforts if we do not build them early on.


Dominae

[Arrian]

We definitely need more than our 1 worker we currently have. At least one more - built from the new city (Hurricane?). Perhaps another from EotS. Connecting cities is important, and so is developing their terrain. A lot of cities will produce only 1 uncorrupted shield until you mine a tile (so it has 3 total, 1 lost = 2 uncorrupted shields). That 2nd shield is HUGE.

I vote 2 more workers, but 3 does seem a bit much.

What I typically do is produce a new worker from each new city I build. That seems to work nicely.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

I guess opinions can differ, especially on these kind of things. I agree we need some testing, and once I get home from work I'll try some to more clearly focus my mind. But, it will be difficult to test, as it focusses on different things.

In the mean time, some comments. Production is going to be important, and my feeling is that with 2 workers, we get more production out of the worked tiles then with 1 extra settler. Note that I was conservative: I said 1 settler = 2 workers, you seem to believe we could get 3 out of one settler. With 2 extra workers, certainly our production would be a lot higher in all cities, resulting in at least 1 shield extra per city (one mine), and 2 gold for a size 1 city. Multiply that by let's say (again very conservative) 4 cities, and you get 4 shields, 8 commerce. You can not gain this by settling an extra city, or it should be quite special. Note that this takes into account size 1 cities, the effects should be larger when calculating with size 2's.

I'm not sure on the rounding effects that 15% gets, maybe alexman has a clearer idea. Otherwise, we certainly are going to need to test this (I'll look out for it). It could very well be that you start to notice the effects once you get 4 commerce (as that one commerce could be rounded up instead of down), which is a situation that is going to occur quite often, certainly if #3 is going to grow into a pump. Note that the roads have a double effect: it gives less corruption, and more commerce. We can't do without them.

Road North: expansion is certainly one aspect, but no matter how close we are going to be with Vox, we need it for defense, easy transporting, lux trades, barb patrols, you name it. That road is going to cost precious resources, but it simply needs to be build asap. There is no question in my mind we are going to delay it, but of course I'm not the one to decide.

And the double worker comment: you're right, what counts for the workers counts for settlers as well. And I think it more or less compensates, but still favours the more workers approach. With 1 extra city, it will be harder to build 3 extra workers than it will be to build one extra city with the 3 initial workers. Don't forget that with more workers, we not only get more roads and more mines, but also more irrigated wheat and game... faster growing cities are faster settlerpumps. Adding a city does little to speed up population growth, and can only build one exta worker at the time, not double the amount of workers needed.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Arrian, X-posted with you. The thing where every new city receives a worker sounds like my gameplan too, but I do shift production sometimes to let one city concentrate on workers, and the next one on settlers (not really pumps, as no granaries are in place). That definately sounds like a good plan to keep to: 1 worker per city we build (more or less, of course).

I don't know if you're answering to me about the 3 extra workers, but if you do, let me clarify: I was saying I vote for 2 extra workers, meaning 3 in total. Not 3 extra workers, that would be too much at this point in the game. Let #3 build one early on, that should be enough.

DeepO

[Harovan]

Turn is here. Both Voxian Warriors went south. Willy went 3 on the mountain, Tim 2 on the mountain.

Their diplomatic response was confusing. I don't think they will care about our wish. What to do with our warriors? If you ask me, we proceed north. I don't want them to make us look like fools.

[DeepO]

If they go South, we should go North. And proceed with Hack and Slash to be able to block the landbridge. (first of all, we need to see the upper North of our side, of course)

I was wondering one thing, but it was too late to comment on the proposal sent to Vox: so far they were going West, not South. We might have given them the impression that West as little, and we are South. This could also signify they are rather East, and not North.

DeepO