Pyramids

[Theseus]

On consideration, I'll back off from my initial "Rex like crazy" position.

I'm not as much into calculation as some of you... I'll just throw out some questions:

So let's say town #2 is set to build the Pyramids. Does it need a temple first? When is the build complete (# of turns and year)? How many other towns will have been founded at that point? How quiclky do we see the benefit? (sort of to Dominae's "show me the money" or 'immediate payback' philosphy)

More importantly, what does this mean for our game-winning strategy? In (my) Seven Pillars framework, it seems that, given our seeming isolation and the power of Industrious, we are going to make a bet on early production power. I'm *absolutely* fine with that... I just wanna know that building the Pyramids is maximally contributory to that goal.

Please re-read the second paragraph in that regard.

I do believe we can grab the Pyramids if we want to... our terrain is conducive, and we know tricks (e.g., adding Workers, as simple as that is) that our opponents probably do not.

[alva]

there's allways 'denial' too, what we have,....

not to mention a couple of culture points, I'm sure DeepO is hesitant to mention it , so I'll do it, but softly

[DeepO]

Theseus, those are the issues that need testing. Which, from my side won't happen tonight, I'm off to bed, and not totally sober... I'm glad you are considering other options though.

One remark: I'm not certain we can assume others don't know the tricks too, although I still feel confident we are the best team in this respect. I certainly wouldn't build a temple in #2, but start on the pyramids right away, preferably adding workers to both get it over with asap, and to be reasonably sure we are first.

Oh, and I was considering the culture aspect, but it doesn't matter that much, I'm sure that if we were not to go for the pyramids, I could convince at least a few of us in building a few temples instead. I don't care where the culture is coming from, as long as it's there

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I just sent a save roughly mirroring our current position to DeepO and the GS "secret" mailbox (in case anyone else wants to do some experimenting). I'm about play out a move sequence building the Pyramids. Stay tuned; maybe some questions are about to be answered.

Nathan

[notyoueither]

Oops, I started a new thread before reading Nathan's post. Oh well...

[nbarclay]

After some testing, I've officially entered my vote against the Pyramids. It was an idea worth looking at, but we can REX well enough without them that they aren't worth blowing a GA over.

Nathan

[notyoueither]

What about the ditch to GL (either) option?

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by notyoueither
What about the ditch to GL (either) option?

I could go for using the Pyramids for a prebuild if our intended target is one of the GLs (with which one depending on what kind of land mass we're on), especially if we do it in such a way as not to compromise EotS's settler/worker pump operations. (I've about decided I want a granary in EotS ASAP, and to have it produce nothing but settlers and workers from then on. Then once we're finished REXing, it can grow big pretty quickly.) But I don't like the Pyramids as our primary target.

Nathan

[notyoueither]

I think I agree re the Pyramids. We can have most of the 'bubble' that is visible settled before it can be completed. Then we are talking a free building that can be built, where needed. Whereas, with either GL we are gaining abilities that no other civ can have.

Go GL's!

[nbarclay]

The value of the abilities conferred by the Great Lighthouse depends enormously on what type of world we're living in. Not that we have to decide which GL we'll make our primary target any time soon.

Nathan

[notyoueither]

Exactly. If we are alone, the Lighthouse. If we are among many, Library.

Time will tell. But we may get both...

[notyoueither]

Of course, we are not alone, ALONE. But are there others besides Vox?

I just played an SP game. Me and 3 AIs were on a vast continent. It is so big that the AI will not settle it all until made to. Meanwhile, the other 5 are crammed into a smaller area across the ocean.

[Conqueror]

First i voted for the Pyramids, but back then it was likely that we are alone.
Now that we have made contact, i'd definately vote NO to the pyramids; it's not good to spend so many shields on a wonder when we might need to build military units, incase the Persians will go offensive. (they most likely will, if there is none else with them on the island besides us)

[DeepO]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I just sent a save roughly mirroring our current position to DeepO and the GS "secret" mailbox (in case anyone else wants to do some experimenting). I'm about play out a move sequence building the Pyramids. Stay tuned; maybe some questions are about to be answered.

Well... you mixed some email addies, it seems, but no problem, I found it. Thanks for setting it up! I'm going to test a few things myself, although I don't think there is really a point anymore, with Vox appearing, the peaceful expansion is not the best strategy anymore.

But it's great to have a test scenario nevertheless, if only to determine how many vet WCs we can make in 20 turns time

DeepO

[DeepO]

Okay, it probably is of no importance anymore, but I tested it with really going al the way in #2. 3 workers added, pyramids finished in 1225 BC. #2 is now producing 18 shields (at size 8), of which 16 are uncorrupted. The workers were added after making sure all tiles they would work were improved, I believe with a bit more focus and micromanagment it should be able to shave off another 2 or 3 turns. One worker was added to grow to size 8, after which food production stopped (rather late in the test).

As I had some trouble with barbs (who destroyed work on a settler 1 turn before finishing, they definately behave more intelligent in PTW), I only built 3 extra cities, but still, another 2 settlers are nearly finished. Further, 1 worker remains. The barbs had one advantage: I took a few camps, allowing me to set tech to max (adjusted to eventually 30% lux to keep #2 happy), so I finished literature 5 turns before the pyramids got built. Without the camps, I fear literature would have come after the pyramids.

I still don't think it was a waste of time, but given our new situation, this kind of focus won't be possible. If we would go for it, I think adding 3 workers does pay off eventually: I got about the same performance of nye, as in another 10 turns I can have at least 10 cities too. But because of Vox, and because of the possible barbs, we can't do it this focused. In 1225 BC, I only had 3 warriors remaining, and still two camps are visible. Only the barbs are causing too much trouble with this limited military, so Vox certainly will be something else.

A few remarks: You don't need pottery when building the pyramids: you gain granaries without them. And, in clearing the forest of the tiles in both EotS and #2's territory, the 10 shields went to EotS, even if the forest was closer to #2. We don't waste shields by clearing forest when a wonder is building (something I didn't know before).

DeepO