Dimplomatic Scholia: Ambassador's Office - Vox Controli

[nbarclay]

From BetaHound, responding to the message above.

Good point. I will add it. I had drafted an agreement which I will finalize today and send to you for comments.

I am interested in what Trip is saying and how it differs from what we have been talking about. I am concerned with him trying to play one of us off against the other.

[nbarclay]

From BetaHound:

Hi nathan. I took a shot at drafting up the points of our recent agreement. I think there wre a few things you wanted added - one unit in Lux's territory, etc. I am working on a stripped down version for Lux. Will send that in the next PM. Let me know if this is OK. Thanks ... Beta.

GS and Vox agree to the following:

1. 75 gold immediately to GS from Vox

2. Vox gives writing to Lux immediately.

3. Lux starts paying Vox 2 gold per turn for 20 turns.

4. GS completes a deal with Gow to obtain map making for code of laws and 30 gold.

5. GS gives map making to Vox. Vox pays GS 15 gold when this deal is done.

6. Vox gives map making to Lux.

7. Lux gives its world map to both Vox and GS when it gets map making.

8. Lux gives construction to Vox when it is done.

9 Vox gives construction to GS when recieved.

10 Vox agrees to sit on Philosophy for awhile to delay the continental civs timing towards the republic.

11 GS researches The Republic next and gives it to Vox.

12. Vox will start research on an agreed-upon tech.

13. GS will not trade the republic to other civs. Nor will Vox.

14. This deal is non-negotiable by Lux.

[nbarclay]

Another from BetaHound:

Hello again. This is what I propose Lux agree to - signed by GS and Vox. let me knw if you are on-side. I want to get this off to Trip asap. Thanks ... Beta.

Lux, GS and Vox agree to the following:

1. Vox gives writing to Lux immediately.

2. Lux starts pays Vox 2 gold per turn for 20 turns.

3. Vox gives map making to Lux when it is available.

4. Lux gives its world map to both Vox and GS when it gets map making.

5. Lux gives construction to Vox when it is done.

6. This deal is non-negotiable by Lux.

This agreement does not negate or replace Lux's obligations under the previous accord agreed-to by Lux and Vox, the Portia Accord.

This agreement does not negate or replace any agreements or stipulations in place between Lux and Gs or Vox regarding unit movement and placement.

[nbarclay]

Another:

Hi nathan. Sorry for the deluge of PM's. But we should discuss something else. We got a letter from GoW announcing they would have map making in 5 turns and asking if we wanted to start working on a trade for it.

Which on the one hand is good news. It would suggest that the arrangements regarding our tech trading relationship are not public knowledge. This can only work to our advantage. This may have been helped by us not yet having passed on Horseback Riding. GoW would be able to see this - so they must figure that we have not been able to reach an agreement with you yet.

And that brings us to how we best keep up this image for the rest of the world. It would seem to be in our best interest to do so. It means that civs are not as reluctant to deal with one or the other of us - as they figure they can get a deal with the other. It may actually lower the cost at which we obtain techs. As long as we are not constantly dealing with the same civ, either from our side, or from the continent, they will probably not figure out the arrangement. And my suspicion is that there is no such unified trading relationship on the continent - it would appear to be an open market so to speak. Which means we benefit from trading with them.

So - what do you propose we say in response to GoW that maintains the image we are looking for. I suspect we can stall by saying our research rate is very slow - partially true (although it is slated for considerable improvement in the near future). And therefore we cannot propose any trades at this time. We discussed Vox sitting on Philosophy for a period of time to force the others to research it. This makes good sense. But we should keep our eyes open if someone else hits the market with it. We should then try and get something for it.

Anyways - any thoughts on our collective marketing and communications strategy? Also, any thoughts on Vox's next research path. Currency?

Also, the new patch for PTW is out (1.21). One of the changes is to make the random tech received by a scientific civ entering a new era, well, random. Before it was fixed. We would get Monotheism. And so would Lux. Which cuts into the value of the agreement we made with them as we will likely beat them to the new era. The new fix may help considerably - if it is implemented for this game.

Regards - Beta.

And another:

Just played our 1450bc turn. Philosophy in 5. And I still may be able to get a turn off of that, as I said earlier.

Regarding my last message - I was approached by RolepLay when we got the save asking if we were interested in literature. May I suggest I negotiate with them for a trade involving Literature for Code of Laws. This would mean we get two techs for Code Of Laws.

Now - I suspect GoW is already out trying to sell your Code of Laws, and I may need to pitch in some gold to make the deal with RP. But that would still be worth it to the alliance. Comments? Suggestions?

Also - have you approached Neu D regarding any trades for Code of Laws, or should I. It might be Ok if we both did - spread some doubt around that we are working as one trading block.

Cheers - and good night ... Beta.

[nbarclay]

Response to Vox:

We've already lined up deals with both RolePlay and GoW. We've been trying to negotiate a deal with ND as well (wanting to trade to all three teams at once to minimize the risk that one might get Code of Laws from another), but they didn't have anything different to offer tech-wise and haven't responded to our inquiries about possible interest in a gold deal yet.

Your other messages are going to give us some stuff to think about for the next day or two. We'll try not to take too long.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

This came in this morning (March 1, U.S. time) but I'd been up all night and was too tired to deal with it then.

Hi Nathan. Thanks for your note. Can you answer a couple of questions before you do your day or two ofthinking - or is that part of it? I would like to get back to some of the folks who have contacted us.

I gather the roleplay deal is literature for code of laws. Correct? In which case we will engage them in a discussion, but not give anything away,

Are we still in agreement that we sit on philosophy for awhile?

And - Trip is restless to chat - as he always is - so I would like to give him as soon as I can the deal we discussed - as outlined in my second message of yesterday.

Cheers - Beta.

[nbarclay]

Response to Beta:

The deal with RolePlay is a straight Code of Laws for Literature transaction. For the moment, the plan is for you to sit on Philosophy, but that's still a matter that requires further thought and discussion. Regarding Republic, it may make a huge amount of sense to sell/trade it as a time when someone else is likely to get the tech approaches, but we do still want to try to set up a window where the two of us are the only ones who have it.

We just had a situation develop with GoW. GhengisFarb had previously indicated that they were going to accept our proposed deal for Map Making, but now they're trying to add strings. (Sound familiar?) One of the things they want is a ten-turn "no tech whoring" provision. Would you be willing to accept a ten-turn delay between the time we get Map Making and the time we pass it on to you in the interest of trying to mask our relationship? (If they trade it to us and then you have it immediately after, they will certainly view it as a violation of the agreement whatever technical excuses we might make to try to rationalize our actions.)

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but I'd been up all night and was a bit too tired for complex diplomatic matters when I got your message this morning. And unfortunately, the trade situation is diverting too much attention from the Lux situation for us to have gotten a lot farther considering that. Speaking of the Lux situation, GoW now has suspicions that they've relocated to our continent, but indicate that they aren't interested in chasing after them.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

From BetaHound:

Hi nathan.

I understand about the delay. I too had some serious RL stuff this week that pre-occupied me. Take care.

Two points.

First - when is the map making trade going to occur? If it is shortly- as in the next turn or two - then 10 turns would be OK. We will need to cover our tracks about what we have to trade.

Secondly - Lux is being a pain. I esplained the basics of the deal we had lined up for Lux to Lux - I thought they would be appreciative. Instead, they have come up with another deal for map making - presumably GoW, and want some of their gold back to purchase it.

Jon and I are in agreement that we tell them the deal on the table is non-negotiable. If need be - our spearman will take back the city and we can put our Mother Theresa aspirations behind us.

Will keep you posted - and will confirm quicjkly the above 120 turn wait on map making.

Cheers ... Beta.

I assume he meant "12" rather than "120" there at the end.

[nbarclay]

Edit: I canceled the message that had occupied this slot in the log before it reached BetaHound.

[nbarclay]

Another message from BetaHound:

Nathan - we have had to write a very stern letter to Lux Invicta. They wanted 40 of their gold back to obtian map making from another source (either GoW, or maybe RP who would obtain it from GoW). Our note says, quite accurately, that we have had to forward a large part of "their" gold reserves to GS to keep the peace on the continent, and ensure their survival. We have also 'advised' them against dealing with the continental civs for writing and map making, which will be provided to them eventually.

Patience is wearing thin on our side. I await his response. It is difficult to imagine that 3 turns ago they were essentially begging for survival. I also sent it to BFM in the hope that reason will prevail.

..sigh.. a despondent Mother Theresa (aka BetaHound)

[nbarclay]

Response to BetaHound:

I just had a chat with Trip trying to clear up a couple points, and I think it will be possible to do business without getting nasty. His main goal for the moment is to keep from getting left totally behind in the tech race, and it occurs to me that it may actually be in our best interest to accommodate him - especially with Lux being a scientific civ and the 1.21 patch out now. A good diplomat tries to avoid using an iron fist when a velvet glove will suffice (or perhaps a velvet glove with an iron fist inside it).

According to Trip, Construction was not part of your original deal with Lux, and the text I have of the Portia Accord seems to bear that out. It's only natural that Trip be upset at having you make new demands (both Construction and additional gold) and offer nothing in return, and the fact that he had an elaborate trading scheme in mind to try to keep in the tech race makes matters worse for him.

But we/you could provide Lux with techs of comparable value in return for Construction without its really costing us anything (assuming we end up deciding it's in our best interest to get Construction from Lux rather than elsewhere), and maybe also arrange things so the 2 gpt you want comes as part of a tech sale rather than as pure extortion. Indeed, making it part of a tech sale might get us more gold than that. And we need Lux to keep within shouting distance in the tech race in the ancient era if we want them to get their free medieval tech in time for it to be of any use to us if it's different from yours. (That's where the new patch plays an important role.)

If you'll let me work on it, I'll see if I can come up with an arrangement that Trip will accept for more reason than just that a spear is being held to his head, and that won't cost us anything of importance in the process. Then I get to try to sell it both to you and to Gathering Storm.

Regarding Map Making, I'm suggesting that we put the "no tech whoring" deal in terms of 10 turns after we get Map Making or 15 turns after they get Code of Laws, whichever is earlier. That's a little over the 12 turns you had in mind, but not much. I hope that will be okay with you if it's what we end up with.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

New message from BetaHound.

Hi Nathan. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Jon and I and the team had to discuss the Lux situation at some length.

As you can tell, despite the Voxian love of the outdoors and travel, we were not happy campers. My recent letter to Trip probably best explained why. However, we have since had some heart-to-heart conversations with trip, and we seem to have all gotten back on the same page, and the mood here has improved considerably.

We acknowledge that Lux cannot be technologically and economically crippled to the point where they would not be a usefull ally. Indeed, our original intent with Lux was that this would not be the case. It was part of the earlier discussions when we originally extended the olive leaf and the lifeline to Lux.

Trip has explained his trading plans to us. We are on-side. However, we do need to discuss the matter of the 40 gold. What seems to be missing in many of these discussions is the expense and risk, in real game terms, that Vox is incurring to save Lux from extinction. That being said, we are willing to, and have already forwarded to Lux, 20 gold from our half of their monetary reserves. We are asking that on your turn you forward 20 gold to Lux from your half of the reserves.

I hope that you can see the logic and the benefit to GS of doing this. You will have netted 55 gold, plus the benefit of the future techs we receive from Lux under the Portia Accord, given the current tech trading arrangement between ourselves. This is the same benefit we receive, with Vox also incurring the opportunity costs associated with Portia.

As part of this arrangement, we will likely get map making earlier than under the GS-GoW arrangement. We will be getting it via Lux, if they can swing it. I hope you understand why it is in both our best interests for Vox to get galleys as soon as possible. Expansion in another direction will take pressure off our continent, as we discussed when reaching the border agreement. This also eliminates any pressure on both of us regarding the 10 turn restriction.

By the way, GoW approached us again today about trading for map making. Any suggestions as to a response? I suspect we tell them that we are a long way to having anything to trade. Which, if we sit on Philosophy as planned, will appear to be the case. Regarding philosophy, four turns to go, three after this last turn. And, we may still be able to shave one turn off that.

In conclusion, please feel free to chat with Trip about any or all of this. And thanks for helping out to the extent that you have. My guess is that you see this the same way we do, in that if we can make a game-long ally out of Lux, then the technology and future support would flow to both of us.

Regards .... Beta.

[nbarclay]

My message back to clarify a point:

Have you verified with Trip that GoW is willing to sell them Map Making without a promise from them not to pass it on to others?

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Message back from BetaHound. (This communication occurred prior to Vox's decision to destroy Lux.)

Hi nathan. Yes - I will check. I'm not sure why GoW would put the restriction on you, and not on Lux. Also, I think GoW's patience is wearing thin.

...Beta.

[nbarclay]

Message informing us of Lux's demise.

Hi Nathan.

You may have read it already, but Vox Controli made a decision this evening to take back Portia, thus eliminating Lux Invicta. We can talk at greater length later, but right now I am kind of worn out. It was not a decision we took lightly, but the situation was indeed becoming untenable for us. Trip and Lux were quite a handful, and a number of things were not playing out well in the international arena, courtesy of them.

I am somewhat saddened by it. It is only a game, but it is unfortunate for one team to exit so early. Ah - the value of diplomacy. If it had worked, it would have been interesting to see if they could have come back.

You should also know that the decision was unanimous at our end. There is an announcement in the public forum. That will be our only public comment on the matter.

We have some fence-mending to be done, and I will need to talk to you further about the GoW and map making situation.

A couple of other things - I was able to get philosophy down another turn through some tweaking and prioritizing - now 2 turns remaining. And any thoughts on what we should plan on reseraching next. We should compare notes about what the other civs are doing.

And oh yes - RolePlay offered us literature this turn. We need to discuss both RP and GoW and how we keep them from getting wind of, and getting upset with, our trading relationship.

We have not mentioned philosophy to anyone at this point in time.

Regards - from a sombre Beta.