Announcement

**nbarclay** · February 16, 2003, 21:49

From Beta - Looks like we may be sitting a while after we get Code of Laws.

Greetings nathan.

Got the 8 gold. Thank-you.

We have started research on Philosophy. ETA is 14 turns which is not good. However, we are due for a major expansion shortly, and expect that we can improve our research capacity in the near future. We will keep you posted.

Other than that - well we jsut sit here on the shore watching the fireworks from across the sea. And - no - we can't really see anything other than the bright lights and the PR flying around.

BTW - we still have HB Riding. Let us know what you work out with GoW and how you/we want to handle this.

Cheers! .... Beta.

**nbarclay** · February 18, 2003, 21:00

Message to Vox requesting contact with Lux:

Greetings BetaHound and People of Vox Controli,

If you aren't already on the verge of making a deal to sell contact with us to Lux, would you please go ahead and give us contact with them? We would really like to have in-game contact before they leave the world stage permanently (as seems likely to occur, given the power allied against them).

Sincerley,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

**nbarclay** · February 18, 2003, 22:11

Reply from Beta:

OK - No problem. Did you have anything in mind? Or just want to say hi and bye?

BTW - we have received math from GoW as part of the deal we mentioned. Dissident played the last turn, and I am not sure if he forwarded it or not. If not, it will be there shortly.

Trust all is well with GS. Cheers! .... Beta.

**zeit** · February 22, 2003, 19:04

i posted this reminder to Bethound- regarding LI contact:

Greetings, BetaHound of Vox Controli Foreign Ministry

How are things faring, neighbor?

What a great time to cherish peace, when one of our fellow teams is about to leave us in a rather abrupt and violent way.

But still, we wish to have contact with them before they're gone. I kindly ask from you one more time, could you send LI's contact to us in this turn?

Thanks in advance
Zeit, Gathering Storm Head of Diplomacy scholia.

**nbarclay** · February 23, 2003, 19:12

This came in on the 20th, but I've been slow getting it posted here.

nathan - I remembered math - it is on the table - but forgot contact with Lux. Diss or I will make sure it is there next turn. Have you heard how they are doing? From everything I have read it doesn't look like they are going to make it.

BTW - we are still sitting on HorseBack Riding - so to speak. Let us know.

11 turns to philosophy. Again - it may be quicker - but expansion brings a down period first. Will keep you posted. Cheers .... Beta.

**nbarclay** · February 23, 2003, 19:38

New message to Beta:

Greetings BetaHound and People of Vox Controli,

I apologize for the concern my not doing a better job explaining our reasons for wanting to contact Lux seems to have caused. We've been tossing around a few wild ideas (though none as wild as your thoughts of giving/loaning them Dissidentville), but they've really been just that - wild ideas that the team ultimately did not view as practical. So really, our interest comes down to two things. (1) We don't want Lux to disappear without our ever getting a chance to see them on our F8 graphs and so forth. And (2) we want a chance to talk to them just in case some kind of mutually beneficial arrangement might be possible. We haven't had anything specific in mind - at least nothing that seemed particularly workable - but we would be remiss in our duties as leaders of our nation if we didn't explore whether there might be any possibilities. By the way, I might note that Shiber was the source of at least one or two of our "wild ideas", and when you chatted earlier, I think that may have led him to sound like our plans for what to do with contact were clearer and more concrete than they really are.

In regard to Horseback Riding, our inclination for the moment is to hold off getting it from you until sufficient time has passed that it's unlikely to cause serious friction between you and GoW. We'll let you know when we think the time is right.

Also, with Code of Laws nearing completion, we would like to get contact with Neu Demogyptica so we can shop it around to them. You stand to gain as well, of ocurse, if we can arrange a trade for something they are currently researching. If you could provide us with contact (or sell contact with us to ND in the next turn or so), we would greatly appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist of Gathering Storm

**nbarclay** · February 24, 2003, 02:00

Response from Beta

Hi nathan. Busy day. Thank-you for the explanation. I should've asked earlier as well. I apologize if I put Shiber on the spot today.

I thought we had already provided contact with Neu D. We will with the upcoming turn.

And - as discussed with Sir Ralph today - we are going to have new neighbours. We have reached agreement with Lux, and our southern border city will be renamed Portia and turned over to them.

They understand our, GS and Vox, treaty agreements, and will abide by them. This is a temporary move, and they are not allowed to settle another city on this continent. They pose no threat to either GS ot Vox.

We can provide more details on this arangement as required, but time is of the essensce, and I must return to some other duties.

Regards - BetaHound

**nbarclay** · February 24, 2003, 21:09

Message from BetaHound that I didn't have time to notice before going in to work this morning:

Hi Nathan. I sent a similar request to Sir Ralph yesterday, so if this is repeating myself - sorry.

What we are asking is that we keep Lux's presence on our continent quiet. We have renamed the city so there will be no connection to our civ or continent when it shows up on the F11 screen - is it? Given some of the recent tensions on the other continent, I do not want our humanitarian actions to be seen in a darker light and to affect our present good relations with the remaining 3 civs on that continent. Also - it will be interesting to see the speculation regarding where Lux ended up and how they got there.

As you no doubt are aware of, the eventual plan is for Lux to take up residence on Legoland's continent, once communications are established with them.

Again - in the meantime, if you have any questions or concerns regarding this recent, and I admit, somewhat rushed arrangement, please let me know.

On another topic - we forwarded communications to Neu Demogyptica to you last turn as 'accepted', so you should have that by now.

That's it from our end.

Regards from your northern friends .... Beta.

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:39

Feb 24 log

Session Start: Mon Feb 24 22:42:40 2003
Session Ident: #preparing
[22:42] * Now talking in #preparing
[22:49] * Tuome has joined #preparing
[22:49] * Tuome has left #preparing
[22:54] * The-Gingerbread-Man has joined #preparing
[22:54] * The-Gingerbread-Man has left #preparing
[22:56] * Jon_Miller has joined #preparing
[22:56] {nye_Gone> hi
[22:56] {Jon_Miller> ok
[22:56] {Jon_Miller> Hey
[22:57] {Jon_Miller> I was oging to the wrong place, I tihnk this has changed since I last used it
[22:57] {nye_Gone> vox and lux have caused a bit of a stir
[22:57] {Jon_Miller> hmm
[22:57] {Jon_Miller> in GS?
[22:57] {nye_Gone> well. in gs and vox, i would guess.
[22:57] {Jon_Miller> yah, in Vox too
[22:58] {nye_Gone> decision to 'sell' a city not unanimous?
[22:58] {Jon_Miller> we are nice guys (too nice to win the game I think)
[22:59] {nye_Gone> well, ok. were you under the impression that gs had approved of the presense of Lux?
[22:59] {Jon_Miller> Vox does not have any internal decinsion
[22:59] {Jon_Miller> yah, I thought that GS was ok with it (they should be leaving)
[22:59] {nye_Gone> how did you get the idea we were ok with it?
[23:00] {Jon_Miller> I don't know idf oyu have it yet, but we are willing to forward the deal Trip signed with us (I think we could have gotten more)
[23:00] {nye_Gone> that would help.
[23:00] {Jon_Miller> I haven't been invovled with the negotiations recently, and the deal with Lux happened really fast
[23:00] {nye_Gone> can you forward it to me?
[23:00] {Jon_Miller> (a lot because of the fact that we are all nice guys and said we would rather them not be out fo the game)
[23:01] {Jon_Miller> hold (I don't have it on email)
[23:01] {nye_Gone> holding...
[23:03] * Jon_Miller has quit IRC (Excess Flood)
[23:04] * Jon_Miller has joined #preparing
[23:04] {Jon_Miller> did you get that?
[23:05] {Jon_Miller> you here?
[23:05] {nye_Gone> here
[23:06] {nye_Gone> get?
[23:06] {Jon_Miller> I Tried to paste it
[23:06] {Jon_Miller> but it might not have worked
[23:06] {nye_Gone> ahh. that is why it dropped you. try a pm.
[23:06] {Jon_Miller> important bit
[23:06] {Jon_Miller> - During the time of occupation of this city, the Lux Invicta team is hereby prohibited from settling any new cities on the continent upon which the Vox Controli team resides, unless agreed to by Vox Controli. They will not give possession of this city to any other team during the contract period, and will return the city to Vox Controli control via the process described above only at the conclusion of this treaty. During possessio
[23:07] {Jon_Miller> - On the turn of 1550 BC, the Vox Controli team hereby agrees to send the Lux Invicta team a trade offering the city "Portia" with the status of "ACCEPTED" when
[23:08] {Jon_Miller> - This city will be held by the Lux Invicta team for an undetermined period of time until after Lux Invicta has built a new city on another continent or landmass, or later than that as otherwise agreed to by Vox Controli. When this aspect of the contract expires and the Lux Invicta team is set to relinquish control of "Portia", the Vox Controli team is hereby permitted to declare war on the Lux Invicta team, and regain control of t
[23:08] {Jon_Miller> - The Lux Invicta team also agrees to provide the Vox Controli the sum of 150 gold, minus whatever is found to be necessary to acquire the "Map Making" technology, as is needed by the Lux Invicta team.
[23:08] {Jon_Miller> - From this day forward, the two teams of Lux Invicta and Vox Controli will swear an alliance of friendship with each other, forever coming to each others aid when necessary, and never acting towards each other in a hostile manner, except for the one condition mentioned above for the re-possession of "Portia". This term will lie in place until agreed to by both the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams to void it, should this ever be
[23:08] {Jon_Miller> I don't think we got as much as we should have
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> Lux Invicta
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> Document signed as official by 'Trip', King of the Lux Invicta team.
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> 1550 BC
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> Document signed as official by 'BetaHound', Voice of Foreign Affairs for Vox Controli.
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> 1550BC
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> you still there/
[23:09] {nye_Gone> Interesting. Could you PM me the full document?
[23:09] {nye_Gone> that is kind of chopped off in parts
[23:09] {Jon_Miller> I think that is all of it (maybe missing a paragraph or two)
[23:10] {Jon_Miller> yah, it is in the wrong order
[23:10] {Jon_Miller> Vox wants an alliance with GS
[23:11] {nye_Gone> thank you for the pm.
[23:11] {Jon_Miller> and we are not a weasily nation
[23:11] {nye_Gone> alliance? we are close to that now, right?
[23:11] {Jon_Miller> (I think Lux is, another reason why I have my doubts about this)
[23:11] {Jon_Miller> we were discussing that a while ago
[23:12] {nye_Gone> are you looking to take advantage of the vaccuum the other side of the straights?
[23:12] {Jon_Miller> I thought that we would let the trade deal cement ties, than discuss an alliance when mapmaking is discovered
[23:12] {Jon_Miller> yes, I think that GS+Vox could make gains on the continent
[23:12] {nye_Gone> ahh. futher alliance terms would be beyond my place to address.
[23:12] {nye_Gone> *further
[23:13] {nye_Gone> i am here mainly to discuus Lux and the new... situation.
[23:13] {Jon_Miller> to continue our freindly relationship, we would expect an exchange of maps come mapmaking
[23:13] {Jon_Miller> you guys are not fond of lux are you?
[23:14] {nye_Gone> again, not something for me to comment on, but your concerns will be logged.
[23:14] {Jon_Miller> we found lux a pain to deal with earlier, another reason why I think we should have tried to get more from them
[23:14] {nye_Gone> fond of Lux? we are neither here nor there, but the balance of power has been disrupted.
[23:15] {Jon_Miller> well yah
[23:15] {nye_Gone> we are not TTA, after all. Most of us are more far sighted than that.
[23:15] {Jon_Miller> but why would we want to shack up with Lux (when they cheated us) when GS is looking so promising
[23:15] {nye_Gone> how did they cheat you?
[23:15] {Jon_Miller> TTA??
[23:16] {nye_Gone> Trash Trips Ass. The first, joke, name for GS.
[23:16] {Jon_Miller> there were trade miscommunications, and Lux got off with the better deal
[23:16] {Jon_Miller> (far better deal I beleive)
[23:16] {nye_Gone> I mentioned something about Trip's ass in my first post. Sir Ralph took off with it, and was reinforced by others.
[23:16] {Jon_Miller> ha ha ha
[23:17] {nye_Gone> It took a bit of effort to get more serious.
[23:17] {Jon_Miller> well, he did not need you to trash his ass
[23:17] {nye_Gone> I guess not.
[23:17] {Jon_Miller> he had glory, ND, and RP do it for you
[23:18] {nye_Gone> I only wish we had patented to idea so they sould have to pay us...

[23:18] {Jon_Miller> ha ha ha
[23:18] {nye_Gone> at any rate. there has been much discussion.
[23:18] {nye_Gone> i have a question.
[23:19] {Jon_Miller> about Lux?
[23:19] {Jon_Miller> oh, ok?
[23:19] {nye_Gone> yes on both counts
[23:19] {Jon_Miller> pl
[23:19] {nye_Gone> how commited to Lux is Vox?
[23:19] {nye_Gone> *Vox to Lux
[23:19] {Jon_Miller> as I said, we are a bunch of softies
[23:19] {nye_Gone> ie, if we decide we cannot tolerate them, would you have a problem?
[23:20] {Jon_Miller> well, we would not want to lose a city
[23:20] {nye_Gone> no. i guess not.
[23:20] {Jon_Miller> and, if they were not beligerent, yah, I guess we would
[23:21] {Jon_Miller> we sort of have lines drawn up (and your warrior staying on our side with no formal alliance concerns some of us)
[23:21] {nye_Gone> however, how can gs guarantee our response on a sudden change of such significance?
[23:21] {Jon_Miller> hmm, reword?
[23:21] {nye_Gone> what if Lux does not play ball to the satisfaction of our hawks?
[23:21] {Jon_Miller> than we would be willing to join you against them
[23:22] {nye_Gone> promising.
[23:22] {Jon_Miller> the agreement is important
[23:22] {nye_Gone> so, vox will back us in our dealings with lux?
[23:22] {Jon_Miller> if they break any part of it, who is to say that they will break the later stuff (tech gifts)
[23:22] {nye_Gone> a question. warior on your side?
[23:22] {Jon_Miller> we will back your dealings with lux in following with the deal hammered out
[23:23] {Jon_Miller> you guys havee a warrior (or had a few turns ago) on our side of the division
[23:23] {Jon_Miller> (the division of land where we put our cities)
[23:23] {nye_Gone> you mean the sentry on the mountain?
[23:23] {Jon_Miller> while I admit the border is somewhat nebulous, your warrior was right in the middle of our land (Where he ahd been sitting for a while)
[23:24] {Jon_Miller> yah, we are not to concerned about him, but it was mentioned
[23:24] {Jon_Miller> we figured you just did not have anything better for him to do
[23:24] {nye_Gone> i thought we mentioned him specifically in the negotiations. am i wrong?
[23:25] {Jon_Miller> oh, maybe you did
[23:25] {Jon_Miller> I don't remember
[23:25] {nye_Gone> i hope so. we would not want to break terms.
[23:25] {Jon_Miller> I remember trade, cities, + alliance in the future (discussion)
[23:25] {Jon_Miller> he of course can't stay there forever
[23:25] {Jon_Miller> mostly we are just not interested in guarding all settlers and workers, you know
[23:25] {nye_Gone> i think it is safe to say, we do not make agreements we do not intend to keep.
[23:25] {Jon_Miller> pain in the ass and all
[23:26] {Jon_Miller> neither does Vox
[23:26] {nye_Gone> perhaps you could check the discussion then, as will i.
[23:26] {nye_Gone> actually, it would be Nathan mostly.
[23:27] {Jon_Miller> he staying there forever is plinaly ludicrous
[23:27] {nye_Gone> i doubt that is necessary.
[23:27] {Jon_Miller> him staying there for a while longer would probably be ok, but as we expand, we would expect him gone (we would want to use that site of course)
[23:27] {nye_Gone> you want to settle a mountain?
[23:28] {Jon_Miller> I love bugging Rah and Ming about there daughters
[23:28] {Jon_Miller> no we would want to use the mountain for production
[23:28] {Jon_Miller> duh
[23:28] {Jon_Miller> (I haven't played for a while, but it has not been that lng)
[23:28] {nye_Gone> of course. it is safe to assume that that Gronk will be gone long before you are maining that mountain.
[23:28] {nye_Gone> *mining
[23:29] {Jon_Miller> yah
[23:29] {nye_Gone> mountains are 0 food. you only mine mountains when cities are maxed pop.
[23:29] {nye_Gone> and have food to spare.
[23:30] {Jon_Miller> but you understand that until a formal allaince, or he is fone, we would rather not have our settlers and workers run free
[23:30] {nye_Gone> anyways. back to lux/...
[23:30] {nye_Gone> ok. stay on that for a bit.
[23:30] {Jon_Miller> we have not always gone for max growth (in fact, I have wondeered about that a bit)
[23:30] {Jon_Miller> ok, on to lux
[23:30] {Jon_Miller> I can see why you would be concerned
[23:30] {nye_Gone> we have assured your broders. why would we have gronk interfere with your workers or settlers?
[23:31] {Jon_Miller> I don't think you would, just some usual nervousness
[23:31] {nye_Gone> i can't blame you. there is some of that this side of the divide. gronk being there sets them at ease.
[23:32] {Jon_Miller> hmm, than he can stay there for a bit longer
[23:32] {Jon_Miller> hopefully with mapmaking, allinace discussions can move forward
[23:32] {nye_Gone> he watches what moves where and the hawks in GS can stay on their tethers.
[23:33] {Jon_Miller> we don't have that problem, we at Vox speak with one voice
[23:33] {Jon_Miller> much more effiecent that way
[23:33] {nye_Gone> ahh, but we see strength in diversity.
[23:34] {Jon_Miller> we have diversity, and all bring there insights into the Voice
[23:34] {nye_Gone> all views covered and considered, or something like that.
[23:34] {Jon_Miller> (and admittedly we have been slow a time or two with you expecially, I am trying to work on thaT)
[23:34] {nye_Gone> well. iguess it is just that we do not paper over our differences to the world then.
[23:35] {Jon_Miller> everything at the end is unamanous, we are not papering
[23:35] {Jon_Miller> (that was why it was slow..)
[23:36] {nye_Gone> ahh. i see. well. few things are ever unanimous this side of the divide. many voices. joyous in their discord yet ending in a harmony... of sorts.
[23:36] {Jon_Miller> the dell deal went, I am sort of sad to see it go (costs 250 more)
[23:36] {Jon_Miller> the vote to save Lux was unamanous, with no real discussion
[23:36] {nye_Gone> we will find you a better deal, closer to when you need it.
[23:36] {Jon_Miller> unfortunately there was not time to discuss the terms much
[23:37] {nye_Gone> re deal worked out. no deal has been worked out with gs re Lux on our continent. can i emphasis that?
[23:37] {Jon_Miller> yah, I know, that was another thing that was missing
[23:38] {Jon_Miller> we were going to send PMs to you, but we did not have time, the game had to be played (And Lux would not have survived the turm)
[23:38] {nye_Gone> i understand that time was of the essence.
[23:38] {Jon_Miller> we did put in stuff in the deal to try tto make sure Lux was not dangerous for you guys
[23:38] {nye_Gone> it may not be all bad.
[23:39] {Jon_Miller> (and we would like our city back)
[23:39] {Jon_Miller> (especially arround republic (but it will probabyl not be for a while more)
[23:39] {nye_Gone> ok. we would like to see a peaceful transition through this... interval.
[23:39] {Jon_Miller> so would we
[23:39] {Jon_Miller> actually, we would like an alliance in a little while
[23:40] {nye_Gone> give me a minute to post a coherent thoguth on multiple lines...
[23:40] {nye_Gone> oh, that was unfortunate, wasn't it?
[23:40] {nye_Gone> misspelling thought in the same sentence as coherent.
[23:40] {nye_Gone> anyways...
[23:41] {nye_Gone> it is possible we could work out terms with Lux to be comfortable with them being here...
[23:42] {nye_Gone> it may involve Vox accepting some terms as conditions to the agreement with Lux...
[23:42] {nye_Gone> would Vox entertain that concept?
[23:43] {nye_Gone> over to you
[23:43] {Jon_Miller> hmm
[23:43] {Jon_Miller> we would nto want to lose anything
[23:43] {nye_Gone> of course
[23:43] {Jon_Miller> I mean, we are the ones giving
[23:43] {Jon_Miller> (of course if the trade agreement is in play when we get techs from Lux, we would give them to you)
[23:43] {nye_Gone> nothing imposing, for the most part. give me one moment...
[23:43] {Jon_Miller> (and I think that it shuold be)
[23:44] {Jon_Miller> I would understand Lux being somewhat demilitarized
[23:45] {nye_Gone> ok. we understand that Vox may want to keep a worker in the area.
[23:45] {nye_Gone> the Lux area that is.
[23:45] {Jon_Miller> yah (and we get luxs worker afterwards (As well as the city + improvemnts))
[23:45] {nye_Gone> ok.
[23:46] {nye_Gone> are you willing to limit the number of combat units in Lux territoryt to one combat unit?
[23:46] {Jon_Miller> I think 2 would be better (1 to guard, 1 to go on the ship)
[23:47] {nye_Gone> not Lux units. Vox units. 1 combat unit to guard your worker.
[23:47] {Jon_Miller> oh, what part of the map
[23:47] {nye_Gone> from what we can't imagine, but we grant you the right to nervousness.
[23:47] {Jon_Miller> and we get at least one per city
[23:47] {Jon_Miller> (in that region of ours)
[23:48] {nye_Gone> no. one combat unit *in Lux territory*. that is all. not the entire map.
[23:49] {nye_Gone> you can go wild in your own lands :0
[23:49] {Jon_Miller> umm, unless Lux reneges or we think they are about to renege or we are taking the city back as per the deal
[23:49] {nye_Gone> of course, if Theseus sees an Immortal he might go apopleptic.
[23:49] {nye_Gone> if you want to take it back, go for it.
[23:50] {Jon_Miller> first line, theseus is a hawk?
[23:50] {nye_Gone> it is understood that if Lux breaks the deal with Vox or us, either oif us will move to snuff them.
[23:50] {nye_Gone> Theseus is a very large hawk.
[23:50] {Jon_Miller> second, if the deal is ending or entering another phase, you would not mind us taking them
[23:51] {Jon_Miller> yes, if Lux breaks a deal with us or you, we get first dibs at snuffing them out
[23:51] {Jon_Miller> (if we can't than you can)
[23:52] {nye_Gone> could you elaborate on the second point?
[23:52] {Jon_Miller> (if it is a deal with you it cannot be counter on the one with us)
[23:52] {Jon_Miller> we want the city, there for we take it (unless you could give us as part of the deal that you would gift it back to us if you took it)
[23:53] {Jon_Miller> forexample, I wouldn't want this possibility to occur
[23:53] {Jon_Miller> Lux break deal with you
[23:53] {Jon_Miller> yo upissed off, but don't let us deal with it, you take city
[23:53] {Jon_Miller> you keep city
[23:53] {Jon_Miller> we would rather take the city and keep city
[23:54] {nye_Gone> I cannot commit GS to not taking them out if they break faith with us. I fear the storm of rage would sweep away any reasoned discussion.
[23:54] {Jon_Miller> than gifting it back to us...?
[23:54] {nye_Gone> at any rate, such a commitment exceeds my authority.
[23:55] {Jon_Miller> well
[23:55] {Jon_Miller> I would think it would be returned to us anyweays
[23:55] {nye_Gone> Get that I am here to discuss general principles. I am not empowered to make an agreement re certain eventualities.
[23:55] {Jon_Miller> since that was a city on our side of the deviding line
[23:55] {nye_Gone> I think that you should bring up such an eventuality with nathan.
[23:56] {Jon_Miller> so it was part of our deal that it was ours
[23:56] {nye_Gone> nbarclay
[23:56] {Jon_Miller> I would think that would be important
[23:56] {Jon_Miller> we would not want to lose a city over this
[23:56] {nye_Gone> i see your point.
[23:56] {Jon_Miller> and Lux is known for being able to piss people off
[23:57] {Jon_Miller> I think that I would like that to be part of the deal, could you post it in your forum?
[23:57] {Jon_Miller> than I and nathan could talk later
[23:57] {Jon_Miller> (we are due for a talk anyways)
[23:59] {Jon_Miller> nbarklay is on
[23:59] {Jon_Miller> invite him here (on apolyton that is)
[23:59] {nye_Gone> Well, I think the big points are...
[23:59] {nye_Gone> Is Vox willing to fight for Lux?
Session Close: Tue Feb 25 00:00:00 2003

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:41

cont

Session Start: Tue Feb 25 00:00:00 2003
Session Ident: #preparing
[00:00] {Jon_Miller> with GS?
[00:00] {nye_Gone> Is Vox willing to limit themselves to one combat unit in Luz territory?
[00:00] {Jon_Miller> Yes
[00:00] {nye_Gone> re fight for Lux. Yes, with GS.
[00:00] {Jon_Miller> No
[00:00] {Jon_Miller> if it came to war with GS or war with Lux, it would be worth with Lux
[00:00] {nye_Gone> OK. We needed to reassure ourselves.
[00:01] {Jon_Miller> we are softies, but we are not that soft
[00:01] {nye_Gone> I think things will work themselves out.
[00:01] {nye_Gone> Ahh, one other thing...
[00:01] {nye_Gone> Tech and Lux
[00:02] {Jon_Miller> adn waht was that?
[00:02] {nye_Gone> We would be very perturbed if tech we gave Vox as part of our agreement found it's way to Lux and they in turn sold it to someone welse.
[00:02] {nye_Gone> *someone else
[00:02] {Jon_Miller> we give you tech we get if tech deal is in play (which it should be util there are only two)
[00:03] {nye_Gone> yes, but we should not give to Lux.
[00:03] {Jon_Miller> ah, we dont' have the same deal with lux
[00:03] {Jon_Miller> we don't give them our tech
[00:03] {Jon_Miller> they will want mapmaking though
[00:03] {nye_Gone> see. they are desperate for cash. they could easily use their position to flip techs.
[00:03] {Jon_Miller> (and we want them to have it)
[00:04] {Jon_Miller> oh, you know that we both have contacs with the rest of the continent
[00:04] {Jon_Miller> we would deal with the tech first
[00:04] {nye_Gone> yes, we want them to have MM, but not anything outside that path.
[00:04] {Jon_Miller> we won't give them anything else
[00:04] {nye_Gone> great.
[00:04] {Jon_Miller> we might trade, but they won't have anything to trade for a while
[00:04] {Jon_Miller> (and yuo would get benifits of trade also)
[00:04] {nye_Gone> oops.
[00:05] {Jon_Miller> ah, bad?
[00:05] {nye_Gone> yes, not good.
[00:05] {Jon_Miller> so you want adon to the trade bill?
[00:05] {Jon_Miller> I don't think that there is anything special with lux
[00:05] {nye_Gone> no. we do not want vox to give any tech to lux for any reason.
[00:06] {Jon_Miller> hmm, is that deal breaker for you guys, or can we have discussion on that?
[00:06] {nye_Gone> we can make sure they get MM soon enough to get off our lands.
[00:06] {nye_Gone> please discuss.
[00:07] {Jon_Miller> I mean, I guess it does not matter which of us trades with them (if they have something to trade)
[00:07] {Jon_Miller> but it is weird that that is such a big deal to you
[00:07] {Jon_Miller> I will present this request to Vox
[00:07] {nye_Gone> we wish to ensure that they do not profit from tech they gain while here. we wish to keep the profit between vox and gs.
[00:08] {nye_Gone> they would flip a tech in a heart beat.
[00:08] {Jon_Miller> yah, and we do not want to benefit them too much
[00:09] {Jon_Miller> (deffinitely don't want them to benefit off us, they are already doing so a lot)_
[00:09] {nye_Gone> well. to be precise, we do not wish them to steal our benefits.
[00:09] {Jon_Miller> right, I can see how tech is a shared benefit of GS and Vos
[00:09] {nye_Gone> yes. joined at the hip or some such
[00:09] {Jon_Miller> and so trades should perhaps be agreed upon by both members?
[00:10] {Jon_Miller> I don't tihnk that was in the original agreement, but I can see it as a good amendum
[00:10] {nye_Gone> certainly re the Tech brokers that Lux are. They are almost Ferengi...
[00:10] {Jon_Miller> ha h ah a
[00:10] {Jon_Miller> it bit them on the ass though
[00:11] {Jon_Miller> they were just lucky that we were softies, and were nto bitten to badly
[00:11] {nye_Gone> Doesn't it always?
[00:11] {Jon_Miller> I think that if we ad not gone for it, they would have tried to get you guys to go for it
[00:11] {nye_Gone> maybe.
[00:12] {Jon_Miller> they were desperate
[00:12] {Jon_Miller> and they only knewa few civs
[00:12] {nye_Gone> we most likely would have let them hang though, so perhaps it is best they asked you. we may both come off well in this.
[00:13] {nye_Gone> You get the land accross the strights...
[00:13] {Jon_Miller> that is hoped
[00:13] {nye_Gone> we may maneuver something out of this.
[00:13] {Jon_Miller> I think that roleplay and ND, and GoW want it also
[00:13] {nye_Gone> do you have iron yet?
[00:14] {Jon_Miller> we have not bothered to hook it up
[00:14] {Jon_Miller> since workers are vaulable to a jungle nation and until mapmaking there is no need
[00:14] {nye_Gone> well, you may need it to cross the channel and be safe, just don;t show any Immortals to Theseus.
[00:15] {Jon_Miller> yah, I am sure we will hook it up soon
[00:15] {Jon_Miller> we will keep them out of the south (unless Lux misbehaves)
[00:15] {nye_Gone> good.
[00:16] {nye_Gone> and we will likewise not show a deadly face to Vox.
[00:16] {Jon_Miller> cool
[00:16] {nye_Gone> better to not stoke concerns.
[00:16] {Jon_Miller> right
[00:16] {Jon_Miller> of couse, an alliance war charriots and immortals can join together
[00:17] {Jon_Miller> there is a missing in there
[00:17] {Jon_Miller> anda comma
[00:17] {nye_Gone> yes. voyages across the channel are interesting
[00:17] {Jon_Miller> I tihnk so, we ahve seen some of that land, but I would like a vacatino there
[00:18] {nye_Gone> how much have you seen?
[00:18] {Jon_Miller> a few squares
[00:18] {nye_Gone> from where?
[00:18] {Jon_Miller> we dont' trade maps (until mapmaking)
[00:18] {Jon_Miller> remember, us and Lux, and us and GoW all hooked up
[00:19] {nye_Gone> ahh, yes.
[00:19] {Jon_Miller> I need to go tobed in a bit
[00:19] {Jon_Miller> 9:30 class I have not been to for over a week
[00:19] {nye_Gone> be free to do so.
[00:19] {nye_Gone> if we have any other concerns re Lux, we will let you know.
[00:20] {Jon_Miller> I will go through my last checks (that I do before bed)
[00:20] {Jon_Miller> I will return here occasionaly, if oyu have anything post it
[00:20] {nye_Gone> ok

**notyoueither** · February 25, 2003, 03:46

Treaty forwarded by Jon Miller

- On the turn of 1550 BC, the Vox Controli team hereby agrees to send the Lux Invicta team a trade offering the city "Portia" with the status of "ACCEPTED" when sent.

- This city will be held by the Lux Invicta team for an undetermined period of time until after Lux Invicta has built a new city on another continent or landmass, or later than that as otherwise agreed to by Vox Controli. When this aspect of the contract expires and the Lux Invicta team is set to relinquish control of "Portia", the Vox Controli team is hereby permitted to declare war on the Lux Invicta team, and regain control of the city. After this, the teams will then make peace at the earliest opportunity.

- During the time of occupation of this city, the Lux Invicta team is hereby prohibited from settling any new cities on the continent upon which the Vox Controli team resides, unless agreed to by Vox Controli. They will not give possession of this city to any other team during the contract period, and will return the city to Vox Controli control via the process described above only at the conclusion of this treaty. During possession of this city, Lux Invicta agrees to produce at least one worker and to use that worker to either remove jungle from, and/or make improvements to, the tiles adjacent to "Portia". This worker will be left in the city for Vox Controli as per the re-possession process described above.

- For compensation of this treaty, the Lux Invicta team hereby agrees to send to the Vox Controli team, a sum of 6 technologies total. 3 of these will be the free technologies given to scientific civilizations per era, and 3 other techs, one from each of the following eras remaining in the game. The actual techs to be given will be agreed to by the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams at the earliest and most convenient opportunity possible. Should this not be ahered to for reason of common decision by both the Lux Invicta or Vox Controli teams, this treaty is void. If there are other unavoidable problems not brought about directly by actions of either team, then a resolution to this situation will be negotiated by the two teams.

- The Lux Invicta team also agrees to provide the Vox Controli the sum of 150 gold, minus whatever is found to be necessary to acquire the "Map Making" technology, as is needed by the Lux Invicta team.

- From this day forward, the two teams of Lux Invicta and Vox Controli will swear an alliance of friendship with each other, forever coming to each others aid when necessary, and never acting towards each other in a hostile manner, except for the one condition mentioned above for the re-possession of "Portia". This term will lie in place until agreed to by both the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams to void it, should this ever be desired by both the teams.

- The expiration of this contract will take place only when officially declared VOID by both teams. From that point on, the status quo will be re-established, minus the terms of this agreement which have set forth as otherwise. The Vox Controli team will then regain control of the city "Portia" by any means deemed necessary.

Lux Invicta
Document signed as official by 'Trip', King of the Lux Invicta team.
1550 BC

Document signed as official by 'BetaHound', Voice of Foreign Affairs for Vox Controli.
1550BC

**notyoueither** · February 26, 2003, 14:30

Feb 25 chat

Posted at request of Nathan.

Session Start: Tue Feb 25 19:58:17 2003
Session Ident: #preparing
[19:58] * Now talking in #preparing
[19:58] {nye_Gone> hi
[20:00] {nye_Gone> yoohoooo
[20:00] {Jon_Miller> yah
[20:00] {Jon_Miller> sorry, talking to Beta
[20:01] {nye_Gone> np
[20:01] {nye_Gone> is he coming in?
[20:01] {nye_Gone> brb
[20:02] {Jon_Miller> basically it is in our interest to get Lux ioff as quickly as possible
[20:02] {nye_Gone> what's up?
[20:03] {Jon_Miller> and it is not in our interest for lux to trade for the required techs
[20:04] {nye_Gone> ok. what is the situation?
[20:04] {Jon_Miller> we give it to them for techs
[20:04] {Jon_Miller> or you do, but for techs
[20:04] {nye_Gone> give what to them?
[20:04] {Jon_Miller> writing and MM
[20:04] {Jon_Miller> what they need to leave
[20:04] {nye_Gone> what tech do they have?
[20:05] {nye_Gone> or can they get?
[20:05] {Jon_Miller> they will have construction in a while, we have fmroe than them as of now
[20:05] {Jon_Miller> or in the futurte
[20:05] {nye_Gone> where is the conflict of interest?
[20:06] {Jon_Miller> you guys trading writing or MM to them
[20:06] {Jon_Miller> for cash
[20:06] {Jon_Miller> when we have the same techs
[20:06] {nye_Gone> where else are they getting it from?
[20:06] {Jon_Miller> from us
[20:06] {Jon_Miller> we would give it to them
[20:06] {nye_Gone> ok. that's not a conflict then is it?
[20:06] {Jon_Miller> what is?
[20:07] {nye_Gone> i can only speak for myself here, but you want to give them tech you get from us so that you can get cash...
[20:07] {nye_Gone> we want to sell them that same tech for cash...
[20:07] {Jon_Miller> no
[20:07] {Jon_Miller> we have the cash
[20:07] {nye_Gone> the problem is that we both want the cash, right?
[20:08] {Jon_Miller> it would be like us buyng the tech from ourselves, and giving you the money
[20:08] {nye_Gone> you have what cash?
[20:08] {Jon_Miller> the cash was part of the risk we are taking
[20:08] {Jon_Miller> you are taking no risk, so you should not have the benefit
[20:09] {Jon_Miller> we have 150, which may be used by the two of us (Lux and Vox) for precuring MM
[20:09] {Jon_Miller> and writing
[20:09] {nye_Gone> well, i can take that back to gs, but i can tell you what most people will say about vox selling techs we develop for money to others...
[20:09] {nye_Gone> i think.
[20:09] {Jon_Miller> we didn't sell it to them
[20:09] {Jon_Miller> we will trade it to them, and give oyu the result of the trade (construction)
[20:10] {nye_Gone> you want to trade mm to them for construction?
[20:10] {Jon_Miller> writing + mm (we have a deal in the works) for construction and probably another tech (have not finished discussion yet)
[20:11] {Jon_Miller> it will be techs for techs (you realise that writing is not worth much though since everyone has it)
[20:11] {nye_Gone> you and lux?
[20:11] {Jon_Miller> lux does not have mm, we would be getting mm from elsewhere (And of course passing it to GS)
[20:11] {Jon_Miller> but us and lux would be a tech trade
[20:11] {nye_Gone> is the deal for mm sonstruction swap between you nad Lux?
[20:11] {Jon_Miller> (with the acknolidement that writing is not worth as much)
[20:12] {Jon_Miller> deal is not set is stone, but that is what we are discussing
[20:12] {nye_Gone> ok. i can take that info back to gs.
[20:12] {Jon_Miller> nbarklay is here
[20:13] {Jon_Miller> shoudl be soon
[20:13] {nye_Gone> he was not online last i looked.
[20:13] {Jon_Miller> I sent him a PM and he appeared
[20:14] {nye_Gone> oops, yes he is. i looked in the wrong place.
[20:16] {Jon_Miller> ok, coming
[20:16] * nbarclay has joined #preparing
[20:16] {nye_Gone> hi
[20:16] {nbarclay> Okay, are things set up for us to start talking now?
[20:16] {nbarclay> Hi NYE
[20:17] {Jon_Miller> basically I can see how doing tech for money trades screw either side
[20:17] {Jon_Miller> so Vox and GS should nto do tech for money trades
[20:17] {Jon_Miller> therefore Vox and GS should trade Lux the relavant techs for techs
[20:17] {Jon_Miller> mainly construction
[20:18] {nbarclay> Lux doesn't have the economic base to research in less than 40 turns.
[20:18] {nye_Gone> go ahead Nathan, I will just listen.
[20:18] {nbarclay> Any idea when they discovered their last tech?
[20:18] {Jon_Miller> nope
[20:18] {Jon_Miller> but they have a coastal city
[20:19] {Jon_Miller> and we have learned much faster than 40 turns off of one city (basically)
[20:19] {Jon_Miller> I would feel better about having them trade some future tech they get
[20:20] {nbarclay> Construction is a cost 20 tech.
[20:20] {Jon_Miller> see , if we trade tech both GS and Vox wins, if we do money trade then either GS or Vox loses
[20:20] {nbarclay> That's twice Code of Laws, or more than three times Philosophy.
[20:20] {Jon_Miller> and we are the ones that are risking
[20:20] {nbarclay> Based on what some other techs cost, it's probably around 500 gold to research it.
[20:21] {Jon_Miller> ah
[20:21] {nbarclay> So at 100%, Lux could maybe just barely do better than 40 turns, but not by enough to make it make sense for them.
[20:21] {Jon_Miller> right
[20:21] {Jon_Miller> but they could do polytheism faster
[20:22] {nbarclay> A lot depends on what they're researching and how far along they are.
[20:22] {Jon_Miller> it really makes no sense for them to be doing construction
[20:22] {nbarclay> On the contrary, if they want to research on a 40-turn pace, Construction is a perfect target for them.
[20:22] {nbarclay> It's the most expensive tech they have the prerequisites for.
[20:22] {Jon_Miller> right, but than they would be getting money
[20:22] {nbarclay> And getting money is a bad thing for them?
[20:23] {Jon_Miller> hmm, we would be fine with you trading for moeny that they make while here
[20:23] {Jon_Miller> just not the moeny that we havbe
[20:23] {nye_Gone> you keep saying you have it jon. your agreement does not indicate that you have it.
[20:23] {nye_Gone> or did i misread it?
[20:24] {Jon_Miller> yes, we have the 150 gold right now
[20:24] {Jon_Miller> and we would prefer not to part with it
[20:24] {nye_Gone> so how does the 150 less cost of mm figure into it?
[20:24] {nbarclay> Jon, could you please explain exactly what the situation is?
[20:25] {nbarclay> I'm having kind of a hard time following.
[20:25] {Jon_Miller> they don't have any gold (or just a couple)
[20:25] {nbarclay> Are they trying to get gold back from you?
[20:25] {Jon_Miller> we agreed to help them get MM, with the gold that they gave us as part of the saving Lux
[20:26] {Jon_Miller> well, it would be easier to just give the gold straight to you, if that deal went through
[20:26] {Jon_Miller> instead of giving it to Lux, and than to You
[20:26] {Jon_Miller> so you see, we are intimately connected to any deals Lux makes for MM and writing
[20:27] {nbarclay> Yes, I can see that.
[20:27] {nbarclay> I wish we'd known about that aspect of the deal before we talked to Trip.
[20:27] {Jon_Miller> but I agree with you that we should not just give them techs
[20:28] {Jon_Miller> that would not be fair to you
[20:28] {nye_Gone> so how would Soloman split this child?
[20:28] * BetaHound has joined #preparing
[20:28] {Jon_Miller> we shuold ahve included you in the deal with saving Lux, but there was not time
[20:28] {Jon_Miller> well, we ahve taken most of the risk
[20:29] {Jon_Miller> what do you think would be a fair division?
[20:29] {Jon_Miller> how about this
[20:29] {Jon_Miller> 75 gold to GS
[20:30] {Jon_Miller> 2 trade a turn for 20 turns (from Lux) to VOx
[20:30] {Jon_Miller> lux gets MM and Writing
[20:31] {nbarclay> One of the big questions is what will be involved in getting our hands on Map Making.
[20:31] {BetaHound> GoW is researching that now.
[20:32] {nye_Gone> how do you get MM? how does Lux get Construction?
[20:32] {nbarclay> Has Lux said what they're researching?
[20:32] {Jon_Miller> Lux is getting construction
[20:32] {Jon_Miller> (40 turns roughly)
[20:33] {nbarclay> Except you don't know when they started?
[20:33] {Jon_Miller> we will trade for MM, standard policy (you get any tradE)
[20:33] {nye_Gone> they are researching themselves? when did they start?
[20:33] {Jon_Miller> recently
[20:33] {BetaHound> not sure - they have awhile to go.
[20:33] {nye_Gone> where do you have MM lined up?
[20:33] {nye_Gone> GoW? How much are they charging you?
[20:34] {BetaHound> Have not discussed anything with them as of yet.
[20:34] {BetaHound> You?
[20:34] {nbarclay> We're already negotiating with GoW for Map Making.
[20:34] {nye_Gone> how do you know you will get it?
[20:34] {Jon_Miller> I thought we were also Beta?
[20:34] {Jon_Miller> if you guys get MM, we do
[20:34] {nbarclay> Right.
[20:34] {BetaHound> Diss may have been chatting with them. I haven't had time klately.
[20:35] {Jon_Miller> so it does not matter
[20:35] {BetaHound> yes - that's the way we look at it.
[20:35] {Jon_Miller> (we shoudl talk about our trades, make sure that there is the best deal for the both of us)
[20:35] {nye_Gone> straight answers do matter. how do you plan on getting MM from GoW?
[20:35] {nbarclay> We're trying to swing simultaneous deals for Literature, Map Making, and whatever we can get out of Neu Demogyptica.
[20:35] {Jon_Miller> philosohpy
[20:35] {Jon_Miller> nice
[20:35] {Jon_Miller> Beta handles those nations
[20:36] {nbarclay> You think GoW would go for a straight trade Philosophy for Map Making in spite of the difference in values?
[20:36] {nbarclay> (MM is twice as expensive to research.)
[20:36] {Jon_Miller> ah, we thought something could be swung
[20:36] {Jon_Miller> (I am the big picture guy, don't know the values)
[20:36] {BetaHound> 120 vs 60
[20:37] {Jon_Miller> thanks
[20:37] {Jon_Miller> yah, Beta would probably have a lot of work to do trying to swing it
[20:37] {BetaHound> Code of Laws plus Philosophy is agood package. But who can sell it better. U or us.
[20:37] {Jon_Miller> right
[20:38] {Jon_Miller> how do you guys want to work that (thanks Beta)
[20:38] {nbarclay> We already have an offer to GoW.
[20:38] {Jon_Miller> oh, right
[20:38] {nbarclay> So it would be hard to change things at this point.
[20:38] {Jon_Miller> may I ask what it is?
[20:38] {nye_Gone> I think it would be a mistake to trade both legs of the Republic tree. Speaking for myself.
[20:39] {nbarclay> But if all goes well, GoW will find themselves wanting Philosophy and not having anything to trade you for it.
[20:39] {Jon_Miller> ok, so we should hold onto philophy
[20:39] {BetaHound> Ah - good cop bad cop.
[20:39] {Jon_Miller> (BTW, did we ever give you HB riding)?
[20:39] {nbarclay> The deal we've offered is Code of Laws plus 30 gold.
[20:39] {nye_Gone> If we have both legs, and they do not, we are much further ahead of everyone else.
[20:40] {BetaHound> So - do u want us to sit on Philosophy?
[20:40] {nye_Gone> We get Republic for an extended period before anyone else does.
[20:40] {Jon_Miller> ok, so we will cover half of your gold expenses
[20:40] {Jon_Miller> + you will get 75?
[20:40] {nye_Gone> It is a tech I never trade away except to a close ally.
[20:40] {BetaHound> Force the others to research it?
[20:40] {Jon_Miller> and we will get 2 per turn?
[20:41] {nbarclay> I have very mixed feelings about that.
[20:42] {BetaHound> is that in response to jon or me.
[20:42] {nbarclay> The deal Jon proposed.
[20:42] {BetaHound> 'k
[20:42] {nbarclay> The thing is, you're the ones who gave Lux a city, but their presence here also affects us.
[20:42] {Jon_Miller> how os?
[20:43] {BetaHound> Yes - that is what we caan't figure out.
[20:43] {nbarclay> (1) There's a chance Lux might attempt some kind of doublecross. Not huge, but it's there. And if we have to take action in response, that's an expense to us.
[20:44] {BetaHound> In fact, it is actually better for you... because ..
[20:44] {nbarclay> (2) Lux's presence here could draw unwanted attention from ND and/or GoW.
[20:44] {BetaHound> the city will expand with their culture ...
[20:44] {BetaHound> and then when we take it back over ... it will shrink again..
[20:45] {nbarclay> Which might or might not matter, depending on how quickly you'd put a library there.
[20:45] {BetaHound> Re:1 ...
[20:45] {Jon_Miller> (thanks Beta)
[20:45] {BetaHound> either of us can paste them quickly if need be.
[20:45] {Jon_Miller> and we would much more likely do so
[20:45] {BetaHound> 2. Yes - a small matter. I agree.
[20:46] {nbarclay> Also, while Lux has the city, capital distance could have a nasty effect on culture flip calculations if we build a city by the iron.
[20:46] {Jon_Miller> and on our side
[20:46] {Jon_Miller> we are losing a city
[20:46] {nye_Gone> Their mere presense is a significant diplomatic risk to both Vox and GS.
[20:46] {nbarclay> I'll agree that you have a lot more at stake than we do.
[20:46] {nbarclay> But the fact is that you didn't involve us in the decision to bring Lux here.
[20:47] {nye_Gone> We were not a party to the deal. We woke up one morning with a new neighbour.
[20:47] {BetaHound> And soon they will be off, and we get some technology, and future good will when we need to deal with the continetal types.
[20:47] {BetaHound> Would you have agreed?
[20:47] {Jon_Miller> we figured that the deal with Lux staying to their area
[20:48] {Jon_Miller> and the Techs (whcihc you will also benifit from)
[20:48] {nye_Gone> Beta, do you want to begin your continental dealings with both ND and GoW hating you?
[20:48] {nbarclay> The question is, is what we get out of the deal enough to compensate us for the concerns and potential problems Lux's presence raises.
[20:48] {Jon_Miller> means that you are benifiting almost as well we are, and we are taking the most risk
[20:48] {nbarclay> If we could get enough out of the deal, we probably would have agreed.
[20:48] {nbarclay> Otherwise, not.
[20:48] {Jon_Miller> in fact, the only thing that we are getting byond you, right now, is the money
[20:49] {BetaHound> Well - I for one did not want to see a team eliminated that early. Call me a sentimental fool.
[20:49] {Jon_Miller> and righ tnow, you are saying you should get that also
[20:49] {nbarclay> Jon, you're calculating based on proportion of risk.
[20:49] {Jon_Miller> same here Beta, that is the reason we did it
[20:49] {nye_Gone> Jon, they will not last 40 turns there.
[20:49] {nbarclay> But we had no say what the price should be for Lux's coming here.
[20:50] {nye_Gone> Boats from across the sea will dump off swords soon enough. Right in GS's lap!
[20:50] {Jon_Miller> and we would have prefered getting you invloved, and having longer to negotiate
[20:50] {Jon_Miller> but there was just not enough time
[20:50] {Jon_Miller> we will be dealing with them
[20:50] {Jon_Miller> freinds liek
[20:51] {Jon_Miller> and they will be much more pissed at us, than GS
[20:51] {BetaHound> I think you are over-reacting to ND and GoW's attitude towards Lux. Do you think they would invade just for that.
[20:51] {BetaHound> And - this will align us - both of us - niceley with Legoland.
[20:51] {Jon_Miller> who is second
[20:51] {nye_Gone> I think that RP is not impressed with Lux either, and they could get 2 gallies with 4 swords to Portia sooner rather than later.
[20:52] {Jon_Miller> wait, first
[20:52] {nye_Gone> Have you taken into acount that any team can establish an embassy with Lux and know exactly where they are?
[20:52] {Jon_Miller> but would that be worth it to them
[20:52] {Jon_Miller> ?????
[20:52] {Jon_Miller> high costs, little gain
[20:53] {BetaHound> exactly
[20:53] {nbarclay> Probably not that high a cost for a one-city civ.
[20:53] {Jon_Miller> just elimination of Lux, on the continent they were gaining land
[20:53] {Jon_Miller> a very high cost for a one city civ
[20:53] {nbarclay> For an embassy, I mean.
[20:53] {Jon_Miller> the cost goes down when you can move your troops on to the next city, and take that
[20:53] {nye_Gone> How much do you think ND would offer RP to rid them of the civ who will hate them to their dying breath?
[20:54] {Jon_Miller> what does ND have to offer?
[20:54] {BetaHound> And if they spend time and enery hunting them down, great.
[20:54] {nye_Gone> I don't know. Do you? They are wealthy from what we can tell.
[20:54] {Jon_Miller> yes,in multiplayer, wasting resources is bad
[20:55] {nye_Gone> The point is, that this situation is not just perilous for Vox. GS stands to loose some too, if things go bad.
[20:55] {nbarclay> Anyhow, having Lux on our continent is not something we regard as not affecting us.
[20:55] {Jon_Miller> some yes, but not as much as us, so you should not gain more
[20:55] {Jon_Miller> I agree nbarclay
[20:56] {Jon_Miller> but we shoud gain more than you , so we should get more of the money
[20:56] {nye_Gone> OK. Jon. You would be willing to transfer the 75 gold now?
[20:56] {nbarclay> If we participated in the negotiation, I would agree that you should gain more, and if we couldn't negotiate a deal where you gained more but we still gained what we considered enough, there would be no deal.
[20:57] {nbarclay> Or else you would have to give up your "more" to make the deal work.
[20:57] {nbarclay> Right?
[20:57] {BetaHound> yes
[20:57] {Jon_Miller> I think so (if I understand you rught)
[20:58] {Jon_Miller> how about this
[20:58] {BetaHound> But are you saying that 75 gold, your share of the technology we get from this, and a potential future ally don't make the deal?
[20:58] {Jon_Miller> construciton (in 40)
[20:58] {Jon_Miller> for both of us
[20:58] {Jon_Miller> 75 gold to you
[20:58] {BetaHound> now
[20:58] {Jon_Miller> 2 a turn to us (for 20)
[20:58] {nbarclay> You're sure Lux views your getting Construction as part of the deal?
[20:58] {BetaHound> yes
[20:59] {nye_Gone> GS would have one requirement of any deal.
[20:59] {Jon_Miller> yes?
[20:59] {nye_Gone> It is non negotiable.
[20:59] {nye_Gone> We get Lux's World Map. In game.

**notyoueither** · February 26, 2003, 14:31

[20:59] {nye_Gone> It is non negotiable.
[20:59] {nye_Gone> We get Lux's World Map. In game.
[21:00] {Jon_Miller> we want that also
[21:00] {nye_Gone> We require it.
[21:00] {Jon_Miller> (and would excnahge with you)
[21:00] {nye_Gone> You would give us your World Map?
[21:00] {Jon_Miller> we want an exhange
[21:00] {nye_Gone> That has not been approved.
[21:01] {nye_Gone> and will not be in the near fuure.
[21:01] {nbarclay> I don't think GS is going to want to exchange maps with anyone.
[21:01] {Jon_Miller> I asked you (or nbarclay) to put it up on the forum
[21:01] {nye_Gone> *future.
[21:01] {nye_Gone> Yes. But we are very... sensitive on that point.
[21:01] {nbarclay> Once we exchange maps with someone, any exchange of maps they do gives someone else our world map, and so on.
[21:01] {Jon_Miller> we want to make sure that you are not gouging us
[21:01] {Jon_Miller> on the sive of our shared landmass
[21:01] {BetaHound> Ok - so Lux gives thier map to GS and Vox
[21:02] {nye_Gone> Yes, Beta.
[21:02] {nbarclay> We would be a lot more willing to consider an exchange of minimaps, I'm sure.
[21:02] {BetaHound> but jon is right.
[21:02] {Jon_Miller> ah, that would work
[21:02] {nbarclay> I can't promise we'll agree, but it wouldn't have the same problems a full world map would.
[21:02] {BetaHound> understood
[21:02] {Jon_Miller> minimaps then
[21:02] {nye_Gone> One thing you should know. I never give my m,ap in MP, even to an ally.
[21:03] {BetaHound> nope no mini's
[21:03] {Jon_Miller> (I understand, but we want to be sure (and we don't want to try and explore your land))
[21:03] {nye_Gone> No matter the circumstances.
[21:03] {BetaHound> Lux's world map to us and GS when they get MM
[21:03] {Jon_Miller> right
[21:03] {Jon_Miller> discusison and GS and Vox amps later (but soon)
[21:04] {Jon_Miller> (is there a way to trade less than the full map in game?)
[21:04] {nye_Gone> no
[21:04] {BetaHound> Ok - and we will owe you 15 gold later for the MM deal as well.
[21:05] {BetaHound> What about my question on Philo?
[21:05] {nbarclay> Assuming GoW agrees.
[21:05] {BetaHound> yes
[21:05] {nye_Gone> I would urge we keep Philo to ourselves.
[21:05] {nye_Gone> Once we both have Republic, then sell it.
[21:05] {nye_Gone> Never sell Republic.
[21:05] {Jon_Miller> ah
[21:05] {BetaHound> Ok - if that is what we agree to - no problem.
[21:06] {nye_Gone> how many turns to Philo?
[21:06] {nbarclay> "Never sell Republic" might not be the right move, because what happens if another civ gets it and sells it?
[21:06] {BetaHound> If we work as one trading block - but give the appearance of two - we will do better in the market I believe.
[21:06] {Jon_Miller> yes
[21:06] {nye_Gone> yes. once someone erlse gets close, then it is ok to sell.
[21:06] {Jon_Miller> definitely
[21:06] {nbarclay> But hanging onto Philosophy would give us a head start whether we keep Republic to ourselves or sell it.
[21:06] {BetaHound> 8 turns - soon to decrease.
[21:07] {nye_Gone> it is such a massive advantage though, best to keep others from it as long as possible.
[21:07] {nbarclay> 8 turns to Philosophy?
[21:07] {Jon_Miller> we are having some jumps in trade coming up
[21:07] {BetaHound> We are at 100% but some recent expansion up north cut into it for afew turns.
[21:07] {Jon_Miller> yah, we will be back to normal in a bit
[21:07] {BetaHound> yes - 8 turns.
[21:08] {Jon_Miller> you have code of laws?
[21:08] {nbarclay> Next turn, if I remember right.
[21:09] {BetaHound> shhheeeesh
[21:09] {Jon_Miller> we expected to finish the same time
[21:09] {nbarclay> We're trying to line up deals in advance so others don't profit from our research.
[21:09] {Jon_Miller> apparently I recent policy decisions slowed us down
[21:09] {Jon_Miller> a good idea
[21:10] {Jon_Miller> I expect we will be done in 6 or so turns
[21:11] {Jon_Miller> that loses you 5 turns though, which is bad
[21:11] {nbarclay> Which means we'll probably have to sit and wait a few turns. Oh well, once we get Republic (with no free unit support), our surplus will probably vanish quickly enough.
[21:12] {BetaHound> btw - who is researching Lit - do we know?
[21:12] {Jon_Miller> 'ND
[21:13] {nbarclay> ND is?
[21:13] {nbarclay> That could be interesting, because RP is too.
[21:13] {nye_Gone> or one of them is buying from the other...
[21:13] {BetaHound> I don't think all is warmth and fuzziness on the continent - even with Lux gone.
[21:14] {nbarclay> That's Trip's opinion as well.
[21:14] {BetaHound> Listen - I gotta get to sleep soon.
[21:15] {Jon_Miller> we are actually support it, would be nice to have a devided continent when GS and vox show up
[21:15] {BetaHound> Have we got a deal.
[21:15] {Jon_Miller> yah, sorry Beta, I forgot
[21:15] {BetaHound> Real work stuff in the morning
[21:15] {BetaHound> Shall I summarize?
[21:16] {nbarclay> Might be useful, for the record.
[21:16] {Jon_Miller> umm, I relaly need to save chattts
[21:16] {Jon_Miller> do either of you 3 do so?
[21:16] {BetaHound> 1. 75 gold now from Vox to GS.
[21:16] {Jon_Miller> (if so could you pass us a copy)
[21:16] {BetaHound> 2. Writing to Lux from us or you. Doesn't matter.
[21:16] {nbarclay> I'm sure NYE or I one will post a log to GS, and yes, we can send you a copy.
[21:17] {Jon_Miller> thanks
[21:17] {BetaHound> 3. Consttruction when Lux finishes it, to us - both.
[21:17] {BetaHound> 4. Code of laws and 30 gold from Gs to GoW for MM.
[21:18] {BetaHound> 5. 15 gold then from us to you.
[21:18] {BetaHound> 5. MM to both Vox and Lux.
[21:18] {nbarclay> If GoW agrees. If not, we'll have to make other arrangements.
[21:18] {BetaHound> Yes . 6. Lux's world map to Vox and Gs when they have MM.
[21:19] {BetaHound> And ...
[21:19] {nbarclay> And what?
[21:19] {BetaHound> 7. The 2-3 gold per turn - jon - help me here
[21:20] {Jon_Miller> to vox
[21:20] {BetaHound> and 8. deal is non-negotiable or NYE eats us.
[21:20] {nye_Gone> hahahahaha
[21:20] {Jon_Miller> we want some opening for arranging the deal
[21:20] {Jon_Miller> but will keep by the points
[21:21] {nbarclay> Keep in mind that GS ambassadors aren't authorized to make commitments on the team's behalf.
[21:21] {Jon_Miller> right
[21:21] {nbarclay> But I'll submit it to the team for ratification.
[21:21] {BetaHound> yup
[21:21] {BetaHound> neither are jon and I.
[21:21] {nye_Gone> and I'm not even an ambassador...
[21:21] {nbarclay> Hopefully, getting Construction will make up for the lesser amount of gold.
[21:22] {nbarclay> Yeah, but Beta and Jon are such a large percentage of the team that it would be hard to outvote the two of you.
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> we are trying to get more people
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> we would like 7 active people
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> not 5
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> (or 4)
[21:22] {nye_Gone> what heppened to flash?
[21:22] {BetaHound> we don't vote - we just roll around in the mud until the One Voice yells stop!!
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> yes
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> falsh left
[21:22] {Jon_Miller> a long time ago, offically today
[21:23] {BetaHound> flash - exited stage left. Sorely missed.
[21:23] {Jon_Miller> I removed him from the lists
[21:23] {nye_Gone> we heard there was a dust up.
[21:23] {Jon_Miller> not between us
[21:23] {Jon_Miller> he just said he was not interested
[21:23] {Jon_Miller> we don't have a clue why not, he wishe dus the best
[21:23] {BetaHound> no - not really. He just got bored I think. Moves too slowly for him.
[21:23] {nye_Gone> that is like flash to make an issue where none was.
[21:23] {nye_Gone> what about eli?
[21:23] {Jon_Miller> there is no bad feelings on our part, we would like him to return
[21:23] {Jon_Miller> Eli is busy
[21:24] {Jon_Miller> he comes occasionally
[21:24] {BetaHound> eli is still around - votes and comments on evertything.
[21:24] {nye_Gone> good if he stays around for later.
[21:24] {BetaHound> Yes - great guy.
[21:24] {Jon_Miller> yah, but not active like Beta or Diss
[21:24] {Jon_Miller> (as active)
[21:24] {Jon_Miller> more like Wittlich
[21:24] {BetaHound> speaking of active - sleep!
[21:24] {Jon_Miller> we ahve a strong core (Me, Beta, Wit, Diss, and Eli)
[21:24] {Jon_Miller> yes, sorry Beta
[21:25] {Jon_Miller> (but want to add on 1 or 2 to it)
[21:25] {BetaHound> I'm old =- remeber
[21:25] {Jon_Miller> ha ha ha
[21:25] {Jon_Miller> probalby in this corwd you are not
[21:25] {Jon_Miller> well, amybe you are still
[21:25] {Jon_Miller> but not as
[21:25] {BetaHound> nathan hasn't declared his age in the ISDG thread yet.
[21:25] {nbarclay> I'm well past college age myself.
[21:25] {Jon_Miller> how old are you two?
[21:25] {BetaHound> how well?
[21:26] {nbarclay> 37.
[21:26] {Jon_Miller> Beta is oldest in Vox
[21:26] {nye_Gone> same as Vincent
[21:26] {BetaHound> 46
[21:26] {BetaHound> Aro is 48 or 49.
[21:26] {BetaHound> We are starting our own forum.
[21:26] {Jon_Miller> where?
[21:27] {Jon_Miller> (old civers?)
[21:27] {nye_Gone> geriatrics.com
[21:27] {BetaHound> It's a secret - you have to be over 40 or female to get in.
[21:27] {Jon_Miller> niec
[21:27] {Jon_Miller> I shuold start one for 22 and a few mnths or female
[21:27] {nye_Gone> what about the 40 year old female accounts from ohio who are really 26 yerar old men?
[21:27] {Jon_Miller> ha ha ha
[21:27] {nye_Gone> accountants
[21:27] {BetaHound> hehehh
[21:28] {BetaHound> I guess Ohio does that to you.
[21:28] {Jon_Miller> are they from reading?
[21:28] {Jon_Miller> oh, wait ohio
[21:28] {nye_Gone> most likely lots of them in Reading as well.
[21:28] {Jon_Miller> you forgot that they were lesbian women
[21:28] {BetaHound> Anyways - sleep. See you guys. We will send the gold when we play our turn.
[21:28] {Jon_Miller> or gay?
[21:29] {Jon_Miller> yah, gay
[21:29] {BetaHound> And what about HB riding?
[21:29] {Jon_Miller> peace, beta
[21:29] {BetaHound> Still just sit on it.
[21:29] {nbarclay> Oh, regarding Grog and his lookout post, he'll withdraw when your borders have him more or less surrounded (maybe earlier if we're 100% comfortable with our military position).
[21:29] {nye_Gone> g'night beta. hbr would be ok.
[21:29] {BetaHound> Ok- the chokepoint city went in last turn - as you can see.
[21:30] {BetaHound> So do you want me to send it. Has GoW discussed it with you?
[21:30] {nbarclay> Right now, you have one city past him, but that's only because you settled a city so far away from the rest.
[21:30] {nye_Gone> no, but we can get it from lux too.
[21:30] {BetaHound> ah - that's a great idea!
[21:30] {BetaHound> I will lean on them.
[21:30] {nbarclay> We tried to talk Lux into giving it to us as an extra show of faith.
[21:31] {nye_Gone> they agreed to give it to us a a good faith gesture.
[21:31] {nye_Gone> they agreed Nathan.
[21:31] {BetaHound> Leave them to me the little whipper-snappers.
[21:31] {nbarclay> LOL.
[21:31] {BetaHound> Oh - so they agreed?
[21:31] {Jon_Miller> so you don't nee dit, or is this posturing?
[21:31] {nye_Gone> I think so.
[21:32] {BetaHound> Ok - well if not let us know.
[21:32] {BetaHound> And BTW - who do we want to conquer first?
[21:32] {nbarclay> Assuming Lux gives it to us, we can cite a source other than you if anyone asks.
[21:32] {nye_Gone> Well, we don;t need it at all, really. Look at the stats of the War Chariot. They are the same
[21:32] {nbarclay> Might help mask our relationship a little.
[21:32] {BetaHound> I have to have something to think about as I go to sleep.
[21:32] {BetaHound> nathan - yes it would help.
[21:33] {nbarclay> It's still a bit early to be planning wars. We're still in builder mode.
[21:33] {nbarclay> Not that we're completely ignoring military matters, but our military focus is purely defensive in nature for the moment.
[21:33] {BetaHound> Us too. I'm just joking. Getting tired. Sleep!!! Good night gentelemen. A pleasure.
[21:33] {nbarclay> Goodnight.
[21:33] * BetaHound has left #preparing
[21:34] {Jon_Miller> apparently french and germans cannot buy pizza from a piazza place in denmark
[21:34] {Jon_Miller> because of their positions on Iraz
[21:34] {nbarclay> Iraq?
[21:34] {Jon_Miller> yes
[21:35] {Jon_Miller> It is almost midnight, I need to start Quantum 2
[21:35] {nbarclay> I really need to be signing off myself if there isn't anything else we need to discuss about the game.
[21:35] {Jon_Miller> (I was suppose to start this last night, and th night before, and so on for the last 2 weeks)
[21:35] {Jon_Miller> ok, I don't think so
[21:35] {nbarclay> NYE, can you take care of posting a log of this?
[21:35] {Jon_Miller> we want the copy of the chatt
[21:35] {nye_Gone> me too. must go.
[21:35] {nye_Gone> yes, Nathan.
[21:35] {nbarclay> And e-mail Jon a copy?
[21:35] {nye_Gone> yes
[21:36] {nbarclay> Okay, thanks.
[21:36] {nye_Gone> g'night
[21:36] {nbarclay> Goodnight.
[21:36] {Jon_Miller> Beta really is the leader of our team
[21:36] {nbarclay> Oh?
[21:36] {nbarclay> How did that happen?
[21:36] {Jon_Miller> yah, he does all the FA with the other groups
[21:37] {Jon_Miller> so I am the leader, but Beta is more of a leader than me
[21:37] {Jon_Miller> if you understand what I am saying
[21:37] {nbarclay> You have the position, but he really runs things?
[21:37] {nbarclay> At least in terms of most day-to-day operations?
[21:37] {Jon_Miller> he is the guy who gets stuff done
[21:38] {nbarclay> Ah.
[21:38] {Jon_Miller> without him we would not have survived the end of January (when both I and Eli got busy)
[21:39] {nbarclay> One of the pitfalls of a small team, huh?
[21:39] {Jon_Miller> yah, Vox is very lucky that he joined
[21:40] {nbarclay> Well, I have really got to be going. Bye.
[21:40] {Jon_Miller> yah, peace
[21:40] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net)
[21:40] {Jon_Miller> Icechat??
[21:40] {Jon_Miller> you left NYE?
[21:40] {nye_Gone> i am here
[21:41] {Jon_Miller> what are you up to?
[21:41] {Jon_Miller> BTW, why did you quit leading GS?
[21:41] {nye_Gone> i was hoping to get some play testing in tonight, but my date stood me up.
[21:41] {Jon_Miller> huh?
[21:41] {Jon_Miller> how does having a date work with playtesting?
[21:42] {nye_Gone> re gs. end of december. i thought i would be very busy, so i resigned.
[21:42] {Jon_Miller> ah
[21:42] {Jon_Miller> I knew I would becoe busy, but I figured taht others could cover
[21:43] {Jon_Miller> and coving the mod and admin functions does not take much time
[21:43] {Jon_Miller> your date is into gaming?
[21:44] {nye_Gone> my date is a play tester. i was supposed to meet up with him tohinght or tomorrow.

**nbarclay** · February 27, 2003, 00:25

Message from BetaHound:

Hi nathan. It is late - so just a quick note. Sent th 75 gold as accepted.

Has GS OK'd the deal discussed last night?

If yes - can I suggest a joint letter to Lux, so they know for sure about this - and don't try to play one of us off against the other.

Also - with tweaking I got Philo down to 6 turns. I have some city growth coming up shortly - so I suspect I can shave another turn off that.

Cheers! Trust all is well. ... Beta.

**nbarclay** · February 28, 2003, 01:37

Response to Beta after playing our turn:

Our current inclination seems to be in the direction of going along with the modified deal, but there's still a lot of confusion where the impressions Trip gave us don't match what you and Jon have told us since. We'll probably need to get that straightened out before final ratification will be practical, but I won't have the right combination of time and energy to deal with the situation until Saturday.

In the meantime, I went ahead and accepted the gold on the assumption that the deal will be accepted once our questions are answered satisfactorily. If we end up not accepting the deal for some reason, we can give it back. I hope that's okay with you.

There is one addition to the agreement that might be worth pushing for: "For the time it occupies Portia and 20 turns thereafter, Lux agrees to purchase technologies only from Gathering Storm and Vox Controli. The price will be 40% of the first-researcher cost, and Gathering Storm and and Vox Controli will split the proceeds equally. (Lux may, however, trade Construction to other nations as they see fit.)" That would help ensure that if Vox does come up with gold for tech purchases, the gold will go to us rather than to our rivals.

Nathan

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