The Spartan Academy

[nbarclay]

It's really a matter of numbers. WCs (and horsemen) always need a significant advantage in numbers to take on fortified opponents, and the stronger the defenses, the bigger that advantage needs to be. If Tom had been able to come in with twice as many units as he did, he could have achieved a favorable loss ratio (since toward the end, WCs would be attacking wounded defenders) and his wounded WCs could have withdrawn successfully to prepare for their next attack. But because Arrian was able to figure out where Tom would attack and concentrate an equally powerful defensive force there, Tom's forces got slaughtered.

[Arrian]

Exactly. I didn't do anything brilliant - I actually played it safe. I made the least mistakes. That tends to win wars.

-Arrian

[zeit]

We have been making less mistakes than Vox so far, and intend to keep doing that, so i think it's pretty much obvious that a direct head to head against Vox will end at our triumph. The question is- how much are we willing to pay for it? is it worth it? and more importantly, what would we do afterwards?

It seems Vox's land aren't worth much, and would also be corrupt. I'm really beggining to see the option of us not going to war- we would tie Vox in a close (although without long term commitment) to us, making sure they are dependant. With Vox tendency to go for the safest and most lucrative offer around, they won't be aware of the fact that they are clearly second class untill its to late for them to do anything, maybe after a war with Lux with them being cannon fodder (or better yet- thinking that they have, while we actually are gaining most ground, and claiming the prime areas for ourselves) to set up a foothold on the mainland. After this, Vox is a puny state near a well develpod, imperialistic empire (hmm... Gathering Storm Empire, sounds good) and any form is restitance, so to speak, is futile.

I say this is possible, since as i think i managed to read what is the spirit of things in Vox, as some of you probably have, from that chat with JM- they will settle for less now, and won't think about the future, as they are mostly concerned with staying in the game, rather than to win it. We can give them that, while we slowly strip their every chance to arive beyond this survival, and they will be pleased. (see border proposal- Vox is actually settling for being a second best on our continent, while Nathan is taking the role of city placer for them).

Now, if we could just settle the GL dilemma, then we can plan ahead more easily... as far as i see it, its a tough call.

[Dominae]

It is possible to defeat on offense with a numbers disadvantage. It just takes different tactics than a head-on collision with their best defended holding.

If Vox does create a ridiculously fortified city on the isthmus, I hope we do not choose to wait until we have a numbers advantage, and use other tactics (Catapults, anyone?) instead.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Vox didn't just say, "Here, Nathan, place our cities however you want to." They listened because my ideas made a lot of sense in terms of how to squeeze the most out of a limited amount of land. What I recommended to them was the same approach that I take myself on cramped island starts (and, for that matter, that we're using in GS's city planning): if you don't have enough land, make effective use of water so you can generate a decent amount of wealth. And I like to think I'm good at that sort of thing.

[Theseus]

The text of the email I sent with the 1700 BC city placement and defense map:

I used the 1700 BC map as a starting point, and added the current city placement plan (red circles), and an early idea of what our key defensive points need to be.

D1 and D3 are for early on... they can be moved forward after the northeastern towns are built.

D2 is indispensable, as is D6 once the town to the east of it is built. They should both preferably have fortresses as well.

D4, D5, D7, and D8 are only necessary if we get as far as having built the neighboring towns before war commences.

D7 is a question mark... either we provide a gateway onto the western grassland, or we have to maintain a Maginot Line. Also, don't forget we'll want a ready reaction force to the west of the Spinebreakers anyway, just in case of galley landings.

All of these should be roaded.

This will mean a minimum of 5-6 Spearmen above and beyond any town garrisons.

[nbarclay]

With sufficient WCs available, we could move D2 and D6 each one to the north. Vox couldn't get to the current D2 and D6 points without going either through or around one of them, and trying to go around would be a fatal mistake.

[Theseus]

Without getting into the geo-political discussion of our long-term plans for Vox, I would like to explore our offensive and defensive strategies in their regard.

Some initial thoughts on the potential of war in the relatively near-term, with Spears, Swords, WCs, Horsemen, and Galleys:

TIMING

The first question is timing, which breaks down into three parts.

First, our GA. I / we have been assuming we will want to trigger the GA immediately once in republic... is this true? How many towns of what size will we have at that point?

At some point though, while in republic, we may want to trigger the GA via a WC win.

(Important sidenote: Some kind of turn-by-turn forecast of town / unit / tech completions, maybe with some alternatives, would be very useful (and keep Nathan busy )).

Second, the timing of our northern-most towns. If we go to war having NOT built the northeastern and northwestern towns, we'll have two great killzones east and west of the Spinebreakers, and will only need strong defenses on D2 and D6 (btw, I hope no one has a problem with fortresses, as was recently being discussed in General). In that case, the town at the northeast tip of the desert will be very important, and we will probably want a defender on the mountain adjacent to it (due to the probable lack of a lookout defending D8).

Third, the kind of opposition we will face. I'm a bit torn here... on the one hand the earlier the better. On the other, if we set this up right, we might be able to do some GL-farming... yes, on Immortals. Catt had a good name for it: "slow war" if I remember correctly. Given our production and fastmover advantages, this could be quite doable.

OFFENSE

We need:

* Enough gold to upgrade all Warriors. I wouldn't mind delaying the upgrades until we are ready war.

* Enough Horsemen to get through the mountains / jungle.

We will need to decide whether to reserve the Swords for defensive support, or to send them across the mountains to D-ville, with or without Horsemen, or both.

A big question will be how far to push forward... I'd think in the first war at least to the isthmus.

What are our thoughts on offensive galley maneuvers and landings? Maybe on a key position at the isthmus?

Do we worry about CFing? Or do we later make it an absolute, irrevocable, and public part of any peace that CF-towns are returned?

DEFENSE

The key defensive positions were discussed above. I like Nathan's thought of moving D2 and D6 north, but only once we are in position for war, and only in the instance where we have built the northwest-most town and have therefore emplaced D4 and D5... otherwise, if in the case of an earlier war, I'd probably leave'em where they are.

In addition, however, what about garrisons? And key mountain landings to the rear?

Again, I'd want to have some Swords on defense, mostly to take out damaged Immortals on mountains.

Do we want at least a couple of galleys on each coast just in case?

[nbarclay]

I hadn't really thought about using horsemen rather than swordsmen to punch through jungles, but I suppose against immortals, the ability to retreat could easily be worth more than an extra point of defense. Of course if we're lucky, by the time we're ready to attack Vox (if we go that route), Vox will have been nice enough to clear us a way through their jungles (or at least to build us a road).

Nathan

[DeepO]

Theseus, a timing question just to confirm how we want to set city build orders: You need 2 spears as fast as possible, and a further minimum of 2-3 when the Western cities are settled, right? That leaves as quite a bit of time, as our next 3 cities will probably be build on our South.

Of course, all extra spears / units are welcome, but as a minimum request from the Spartan Academy such an estimate is valuable.

DeepO

[Theseus]

Yes, I think D1 and D2 (especially) are important. After that, of course, the line of northern towns will need Spears as well.

[Aeson]

I like the general layout, but I think we could use our city placement to better utilize WC's (mainly keeping them away from mountains whenever possible). I've sent a picture to our email addy with the changes. I'll go into more detail about it later tonight, gotta run now.

[DeepO]

City placement isn't only a military thing, so allow me a few comments:
Site #2, which used to be site #6 before (some of the numbers have already been built) should move 7. I know that this means we need a cultural building in either of the three cities to use the fur, but it also makes better use of the coast. It only matters one tile, but one tile more to use is one won

Site #6 (used to be #11): I've got little opinion on which one is better, it used to be farther from the mountains, but it was changed so that there wouldn't be a cultural battle for the iron, it would certainly be ours. Both are fine by me...

I saw you used an alternate plan, which gives us two less cities. I'm not sure if this is intended, but our border treaty with Vox allows for more territory to use, so why wouldn't we take it? Sure, our defense should be adjusted, but don't 2 extra cities pay for that?

DeepO

[Theseus]

Sorry, guys. I used the last ratified border treaty that Nathan posted for the north, and otherwise the most recent city placement map I could find.

Let's do a new city placement map.

Uhmm, would anybody mind talking about military stuff?

[DeepO]

Theseus, your city planning map was what I expected, with only the discovery of the whale changing one city in the desert... it's Aseon's map I was commenting on. It's in our mailbox.

I like to read some explanations on all the other things on the map though, I've got some ideas, but am curious to the rest.

DeepO