The Spartan Academy

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
If they are trading with another civ, our economic superiority may not mean much. And even if we contact the other civ, they may have decided to ally against us (so, no trades).

I certainly won't take for granted that we'll be able to gain a tech lead (which is why I said "chances aren't bad"), and if we can't, we'll probably need to fight early enough to win before they get pikemen (unless by some miracle relations are good enough by then that we don't want to fight them after all). In that case, we need to optimize our time of attack to get the best production and military size advantage we can. But I prefer to save that as a back-up plan and hope we can do better.

Nathan

[Arrian]

Wow, this thread is getting cold.

Anyway, as some of you know, I'm involved in a PBEM game in which my main opponent is Egypt. The results of a massive battle between his War Chariots and my entrenched spearmen/swordsmen/catapults and horseman counterattackers has convinced me that - at least against a relatively intelligent opponent - a huge War Chariot attack stands a pretty good chance of being butchered (if you are at all interested, check the Strat forum thread).

Sure, Vox is weak. They also have a huge geographical advantage: the chokepoint. All they need to do to make a GS invasion more costly than it's worth is build a city on the hill right next to the chokepoint, get a barracks & walls in it, and stick most of their army there.

War Chariots attacking a heavily fortified position simply do not do the job.

This does NOT mean, however, that I'm advocating 100% trust and partnership with Vox. I think we ought to proceed cautiously, and try to out-REX them while also seeing to our defenses as best we can. Then, we try to contain them. If there is to be a war, let them start it, so we have the opportunity of killing their attack force and then moving to counterattack.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

I haven't seen your Strat forum thread updates, but I'm not terribly surprised... if and when we undertake such an attack, I would want to mix in Spearmen and Swordsmen sufficient to 1) defend while on the approach, 2) finish off the attack, and 3) defend the hill and / or town on a hill.

Believe me, I've been thinking about this since we met Vox. It'll be a *****, but it's doable.

[Harovan]

I think, I'd prefer a mixed approach.

At the moment, a peace treaty or may be even an alliance with Vox is not a bad thing. We have a buffer state, and who wants to hurt us, needs to go through Vox. We would, as good allies, fight at Voxian territory, but at least ours won't be devastated. Also, at the moment, we simply don't need more land. All above the Spinebreakers will be highly corrupt anyway, so it's better Vox extracts the shields there and fights side by side with us against Lux, or we extract nothing from there and fight alone. I'd prefer the former.

However, this alliance should not last the whole game. And it should not mean, that we should neglect our defense. Sure, the GL is an awesome wonder. But what we are going to pay for it, is simply too much. We should REX, build an appropriate military (mind you, not an offensive yet), a fleet of galleys to explore and to attack eventually sighted invasion fleets. Vox is meant to be an ally for now, but that does not mean we should 100% trust them.

What we need to do, is to play rock solid. And everyone should repeat 3 times before sleep "We are NOT playing against the AI". Every day. Even better 5 times.

[asleepathewheel]

I would think that the best way to attack Vox would be through the back door, via galleys.

They have, what, 3 cities now? All are coastal, i would bet. drop what, 2 galleys of chariots at each and boom, no more vox.

Quite precarious, I'm sure that their resources are all focused down towards us, and perhaps near the lux channel.

[nbarclay]

When I talked to Jon, he sounded like what they have in mind for a REXing contest (if it comes down to it) is to try to build their eventual border cities right off the bat. That would leave us with three options, assuming we have enough sense not to wreck our own economy competing in that kind of contest.

(1) Let them have the borders they want.

(2) Warn them off, pointing out that certain warmongers among us would regard it as an opportunity too good to pass up if they wreck their economy building mostly highly corrupt cities early.

(3) Let them build, and then take advantage of the situation to attack them.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
(2) Warn them off, pointing out that certain warmongers among us would regard it as an opportunity too good to pass up if they wreck their economy building mostly highly corrupt cities early.

I like this option, although mentioning our warmongers is a bit strong. Rather, we should mention our relative superiority, and hope they catch our drift.


Dominae

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by nbarclay
(3) Let them build, and then take advantage of the situation to attack them.

I believe this is the best option if they will not listen to reason.

Let them settle useless, to them, cities. Let us continue settling the best sites for us.

If Vox insists on intruding too far South... Theseus would not be unhappy having more to do...

I think it would be a mistake to continue diplomacy with swords in the background. We will not gain a true picture of thier real intentions, only cow them for the short term. If they wish a real, viable relationship, they will respond to reason and facts.

[DeepO]

As any war at this point is going to be too costly (with or without the GL, as not having the GL doesn't make a war possible the next 20 turns), we have to sit it out for a while. Border treaty is my preferred choice, because we seem to be getting what we wanted (apart from one access point to the pinebreakers), and we don't settler this continent suboptimally. Racing is nice, but not efficient.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Theseus
I haven't seen your Strat forum thread updates, but I'm not terribly surprised...

I slaughtered him. 35 units exchanged for 8 and a broken road. Plus a blown GA for him and a Leader for me. I thrashed him so badly in that battle that he conceded.

if and when we undertake such an attack, I would want to mix in Spearmen and Swordsmen sufficient to 1) defend while on the approach, 2) finish off the attack, and 3) defend the hill and / or town on a hill.

Believe me, I've been thinking about this since we met Vox. It'll be a *****, but it's doable.

I believe you. So have I, on and off. But I have just seen first hand what happens when you try to attack a heavily fortified position set up by a human, and figured I should mention it.

Like SR says... we're not playing the AI. We're not playing the AI. We're not playing the AI. There, that's my three for the day.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Uh, yeah. We are playing VOX!!!

[Arrian]

True. But, even if you say their defenses would be inferior to the ones I set up in my PBEM game, the natural geographical advantage they have goes a looooooong way towards cancelling that out.

Besides, it's best to overestimate the skills of your opponent as opposed to the other way around.

They're still gonna be tougher than the AI.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

I'm not a head Tactician, but I'm hoping we're not going to full-frontal assault a size 7 city. With WCs (and fast-movers generally), the aim is to control the open ground. This allows you to pick the best targets, cut off reinforcements, and pillage (if you're in to that, which I am). Only once the enemy is broken should he be defeated.

I did not study your game too carefully Arrian, but Tom's attack seemed a bit premature to me. With his momentary unit advantage he could have given you a lot worse headaches than an attack on your best city.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Dominae,

Yes, he made some mistakes. Mistakes I don't think we would make. He hit the absolute worst city he could have hit. Still, even it hadn't, I would have given him a major bloody nose, and I think come out of the war on top.

My point is simply this: unless we use galleys to circumvent it, the chokepoint will be a nightmare for us to attack.

Shanghai, the city Tom attacked, was size 7 on flat ground. So, the units inside had a 75% bonus (50% for the size, 25% for fortification).

Now, if I'm Vox, I build a city up on the hill just south of the chokepoint. I build walls. With walls plus the hill, we'd be staring at a 125% defense bonus. The other option is to go around, and they would have multiple shots at our passing troops with Immortals inside the city.

I'm not trying to say we couldn't defeat them. I AM trying to say that defense has the advantage in MP.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

I agree about the chokepoint city and Galleys, but only once we've finally decided to conquer them. Once war is declared, we're committed. But that does not mean we have to strike immediately. While we prepare a Galley invasion, we can conquer the cities south of the chokepoint, and blockade Vox from coming south. Since their lands north of isthmus are so bad, we'll win by sheer Shield advantage. Extending wars is not always a good idea in Civ3, but I believe this is a case in which it could benefit us.


Dominae