DIPLO: Legoland diplomatic contact LOG

[DeepO]

Hello Vondrack,

AFAIK you sent it as an unaccepted deal, at least that is how I read it in the turn thread. But we were absolutely not offended, so no apology is necessary. Not only did education come one turn before what we expected, but we are still building libraries, which means that we're better off if we now save cash, and rush towards banking later, running a deficit. I'm sure that in the end there will be no delay whatsoever.

I read your chat with Shiber, and want to stress that we did send payment the moment we got the signed proposal back, I hope this didn't cause any delays on your side. I apologize for not being able to chat last Sunday, but I was really dead tired after a very busy weekend. Hopefully next Sunday, nothing comes up

All the best,
DeepO

Hello, DeepO!

I was very surprised to see the GS' "counteroffer" to Education this turn. I would swear I sent Education to you as ACCEPTED on the previous turn, expecting you to accept it and send your payment in a "separate package"... if I messed up and sent Education as UNaccepted, then I profoundly apologize. I did not mean to - I really wanted to send it as accepted, to allow you to start researching Banking ASAP. Dunno what happened... we know we can trust your word 100%, so it was not meant to show any distrust or "cautiousness".

Cheers,
vondrack

[DeepO]

Thanks Vondrack...

'poly indeed had her time of the month again last week

I'm not sure if it was sent to Vox yet, but we ratified the last proposal nye and Vox worked out. At turn 128, Voxodus would be complete, with all Voxian troops off our continent, and onto Legos Minor. I hope you'll find them a better neighbour as we had

As to the Colossus: Thanks, it will probably help in getting up to speed in research. We thought you were building it, but after seeing in chat you had no interest in starting your GA too soon, we decided to go on. I hope you weren't planning on building it yourselves at a later date!

DeepO

Hello, DeepO,

AFAIK you sent it as an unaccepted deal, at least that is how I read it in the turn thread. But we were absolutely not offended, so no apology is necessary. Not only did education come one turn before what we expected, but we are still building libraries, which means that we're better off if we now save cash, and rush towards banking later, running a deficit. I'm sure that in the end there will be no delay whatsoever.

I am really glad to hear that, I would feel pretty bad if whatever mistake I must have made sending you Edu caused any dealys. We had some doubts regarding the discovery of Education, but eventually things went just fine - and you were sent it on the very turn we finished our research.

I read your chat with Shiber, and want to stress that we did send payment the moment we got the signed proposal back, I hope this didn't cause any delays on your side. I apologize for not being able to chat last Sunday, but I was really dead tired after a very busy weekend. Hopefully next Sunday, nothing comes up

It seems that ZargonX, who was supposed to send you the signed trade agreement back quite some time ago, had some troubles PMing it - Poly was having her days and it seems his first PM was either never actually sent or never reached you (you got only the second one - which I realized only after talking to Shiber).

Nothing missed on Sunday - I do not think we had to much to talk about anyway. Just to keep you posted: The New Voice (the first Voxian refuge settlement on Legos Minor), has been founded this turn and offered as accepted to Vox Controli.

And - congratulations to the completion of Colossus!

Best regards,
vondrack

[DeepO]

Hi Vondrack,

I'm sorry to have missed last chat on Sunday, I was on a party with my family, and totally forgot about it until it was way too late... I've been trying to get a hold of you in the evening ever since, but when I had time, 'poly was down... or at least I couldn't get in. I can't chat at work, it seems I don't have nearly as much problems during the day...

I still want to arrange for a chat, it looks like a lot is going on in the world lately, which also affects us both (especially when it comes to trading away techs)... maybe we can compare notes on what we think is really happening on Bob, and learn from each other. If possible, I want to connect this evening, as tomorrow won't be posisble for me... would that suit you? If I can't get in, could we perhaps meet in a chat room outside of 'poly?

cheers,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Great, that should be possible for me. If 'poly is having problems, I'll send an e-mail...

DeepO

I will be leaving home for about two hours this evening, but we should be able to chat after I come back - either here at Poly or somewhere else. I am sure I will be available from about 8pm GMT onwards. Just send an email to vondrack@jimaz.cz - we can arrange something then.

Cheers,
vondrack

[DeepO]

Session Start: Thu Jul 17 20:59:45 2003
[20:59] } Successfully joined #LeuvenV at 8:59pm
[20:59] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0
[20:59] } Channel Modes: +
[20:59] } Created on Thursday, July 17th, 2003 at 8:59pm
[20:59] *** Retrieving #LeuvenV info...
[20:59] [8:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +s
[20:59] [8:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +k laams
[21:00] [9:00pm] DeepO sets mode: -s+p
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[21:05] [9:05pm] DeepO sets mode: +n
[21:05] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— [9:05pm] ERROR } 403: NO SUCH CHANNEL: +T
[21:05] [9:05pm] DeepO sets mode: +t
[22:02] [10:02pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «2 people»
[22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} hello!
[22:03] {DeepO} hi there!
[22:03] «SirRalph in #GStalks at 10:03pm» threatening with da mighty conquistadore, deepO?
[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} just came home from a big shopping event )
[22:03] {DeepO} sorry Vondrack, was talking elsewhere too
[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} no problem
[22:04] {DeepO} let me see if I can lure some of GS in here
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} just gimme a shout when you are ready
[22:05] {DeepO} okay...
[22:05] {DeepO} sorry, had some business to tend to
[22:05] [10:05pm] SirRalph (~sirralph@pD9E00C03.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined. «3 people»
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} np
[22:05] {DeepO} maybe someone will join later
[22:05] {DeepO}
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} hello, Sir Ralph!
[22:05] [10:05pm] {SirRalph} hello
[22:06] {DeepO} okay... let's get this started
[22:06] [10:06pm] {vondrack} k
[22:06] {DeepO} first of all, I'm sorry for missing last events
[22:06] {DeepO} rl, and 'poly..
[22:06] [10:06pm] {vondrack} np
[22:06] {DeepO} but I felt we needed to chat, certainly with th current war
[22:06] {DeepO} main reason is that it means we won't have anyone buying techs
[22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} true
[22:07] [10:07pm] nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has joined. «4 people»
[22:07] {DeepO} so... do we race along, taking a lead, or back off a little, saving cash?
[22:07] [10:07pm] {nye} allo
[22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} heya, nye!
[22:07] [10:07pm] {nye} hi, vonD
[22:08] {DeepO} largely this depends on what you want...
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} we have not discussed that too much, but we lean towards racing along, I believe
[22:08] {DeepO} we can use the cash, to be honest
[22:08] {DeepO} okay
[22:08] {DeepO} so do you have any idea of a favorable ETA?
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} just as with you, once we have our land railroaded and arty stocked, we will feel safe
[22:08] {DeepO} and do we want to keep techs from the others in the mean time?
[22:08] {DeepO} true
[22:09] {DeepO} (I mean to RR)
[22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} if there is nothing they can offer, probably yes
[22:09] {DeepO} that would include Vox, though...
[22:09] {DeepO} not sure what your standing on that is
[22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} you mean that we would not trade techs to them wither?
[22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} *either
[22:10] {DeepO} well.. we still consider them sort of a risk
[22:10] {DeepO} given our history
[22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack}
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} we hope for a different history )
[22:11] {DeepO} so... racing along, keeping techs should be some kind of mutual thing, ideally
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} honestly - this is a bit difficult to generalize about
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} as I said
[22:11] {DeepO} ?
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} as long as there is something we can get for our techs
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} something valuable
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} we are open for trade
[22:12] {DeepO} like lux, or NAPs?
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} but we seek something valuable in return
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} like lux, yes
[22:12] {DeepO} I can imagine...
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} I do not care about NAPs too much
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} you read my posts in the public forum
[22:12] {DeepO} but who would you trade it from?
[22:12] {DeepO} I did, and I agree
[22:13] {DeepO} but don't want to say to much in public
[22:13] {DeepO} last time, that left me nowhere, and damaged the group
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} heh, right...
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} I myself should sometimes better shut up
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} excuse me - must go AFK for a couple of minutes
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} brb
[22:14] {DeepO} the problem is, that for the next 10 turns or so, it is very hard to see who would be stable enough on Bob
[22:14] {DeepO} np... I'll try to arrange a couple of things
[22:14] {DeepO} as NAPs don't mean much, there is no way of knowing where this war is going to end
[22:15] {DeepO} it looks like RP is on the receiving end, so dealing with them is not so easily
[22:15] {DeepO} but OTOH, they could very well get GoW or ND to backstab eachother
[22:15] {DeepO} we feel very wary of trades for the moment
[22:15] {DeepO} we have some lux deals laid out
[22:16] {DeepO} and I don't think we'll likely get more... or others
[22:16] {DeepO} also, we don't think a situation where Bob is divided in 2 civs is good for us
[22:17] {DeepO} so we're trying to see how we can stabilize them
[22:17] {DeepO} keep 3 civs on Bob, or at least have 2 battered up civs splitting the continent
[22:17] {DeepO} but again... this is very tricky, and if possible, we would want to chat with you about where you want to go
[22:18] {DeepO} so that we can adjust plans...
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} ok, back - sorry for the interruption
[22:24] {DeepO} np
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} right, 3-civ Bob is best, agreed
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} but that is not likely to happen
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} one of them will go, sooner or later
[22:25] [10:25pm] {vondrack} RPers made themsleves a target by never keeping their promises
[22:25] {DeepO} yes... but we (Lego-GS) can perhaps time them going
[22:25] {DeepO} true...
[22:25] «nye in #GStalks at 10:25pm» deepo, can i ask vond a question?
[22:25] [10:25pm] {vondrack} yes... at least, we can try
[22:25] {DeepO} the thing is, do we want to?
[22:25] [10:25pm] {nye} vonD, are there any conditions that Lego would intervene outside of Legoland?
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} in the foreseeable future, NO
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} we are bound by a treaty
[22:26] [10:26pm] {nye} with both nd and gow?
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} nope, just one of them
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} but covers the whole of Bob
[22:26] [10:26pm] {nye} it keeps you off bob entirely?
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:27] [10:27pm] {nye} wow. how long does it last?
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} just a sec, must check that
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} damn, I cannot - poly is down
[22:27] {DeepO} again
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} I think for like 30 turns at least
[22:28] [10:28pm] {nye} it is ok. would you intervene after that?
[22:28] [10:28pm] {nye} or be inclined to even look at the possibility
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} maybe, maybe not - whatever I say now would be even less than "informal speculations"
[22:29] [10:29pm] {nye} that is all it could be
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} well, all that "builder stuff" is just plain nonsense, you know
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} if we believe it is time to strike, we will
[22:29] {DeepO} so.. you want to invade us?
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} LoL
[22:29] [10:29pm] {nye} ok. a 2 civ bob is a... concern
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} sure - there is no treaty preventing us
[22:30] [10:30pm] {nye} oh oh
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack}
[22:30] [10:30pm] {nye}
[22:30] {DeepO} I wonder, even if you have a 'no invading Bob' deal
[22:30] «nye in #GStalks at 10:30pm» back to you, deepo
[22:30] {DeepO} does that mean you are at extremely good grounds with that civ?
[22:31] {DeepO} in that you would favour them over any of the others?
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} well... if there is a 2 civ Bob, we would have to seriously consider our 'peacenik' strategy, that is for sure
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} no, I would not say it that way
[22:31] {DeepO} okay... so you wouldn't mind if we possibly intervened?
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} it was a deal we made when there was an opportunity
[22:31] {DeepO} (very hypotehtically speaking, of course)
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} hmmm... that's a question I haven't anticipated, honestly...
[22:32] {DeepO} well... we share concerns about a 2-civ Bob
[22:32] {DeepO} and while there are a couple of options to keep them from getting there
[22:33] {DeepO} war is one of them...
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} I guess we would not feel any need to get involved
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} though this is mostly my personal feeling
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} this was never discussed in our forum
[22:33] {DeepO} also not by e.g. giving loans to one team in need?
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} ah, that's something different
[22:33] {DeepO} well.. this is completely of the record here
[22:34] {DeepO} this certainly is not something we are decided on
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} no treaty prevents us from doing business with Bobians
[22:34] {DeepO} but it would be my job as an ambassador to know what you think of this
[22:34] {DeepO} business.. yes... but at what cost?
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} well, let me put it this way:
[22:34] {DeepO} and can we complement each other here
[22:34] {DeepO} go ahead
[22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} there is VERY little love between us and the team in danger
[22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} but even if we do not like them, we do not like the idea of a 2-civ Bob either
[22:35] {DeepO} it's not that we like RP... but it might be necessary
[22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} so we may forget our dislikes temporarily
[22:36] {DeepO} agreed... we're in the same situation, sort of
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} and lend a hand if it improves the chances of a prolonged war of attrition on Bob
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} yes, it seems so
[22:37] {DeepO} well... I'm thinking on options here
[22:37] {DeepO} one of them is to keep RP alive until we could trade Chivalry to them
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} so - we may happen to end up helping, economically, a team that would normally be the last one to receive our help
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} sigh
[22:37] {DeepO} but in this case, they need money
[22:37] {DeepO} I feel your pain
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack}
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} yes, they do need money
[22:38] [10:38pm] {nye} i must go. nice to see you vonD.
[22:38] {DeepO} bye nye
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} take care, nye!
[22:38] [10:38pm] nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has parted. «3 people»
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} have they contacted you, asking for help?
[22:38] {DeepO} sort of... but not with too much fire
[22:39] {DeepO} they know our relation, of course
[22:39] {DeepO} did they contact you?
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} yes, they did
[22:39] {DeepO} it seems Togas is rallying all the help they can get
[22:39] {DeepO} they probably contacted Vox as well
[22:39] {DeepO} seeing if they can offer a loan
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack}
[22:40] {DeepO} talking about options: the other option for us would be to go to Bob ourselves
[22:40] {DeepO} but already, we're not easily defended
[22:40] {DeepO} and we can miss any ganging up on us
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} I doubt the time would be right NOW for you
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} you could actually unite them against you
[22:41] {DeepO} probably yes
[22:41] {DeepO} although it is hard to see how good their relations are, even at war
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} btw - have you sold your map to anyone else?
[22:42] {DeepO} yes we did...
[22:42] {DeepO} didn't I tell you?
[22:42] {DeepO} I think you got the better deal, though
[22:42] {DeepO} as you were one turn later
[22:42] {DeepO} getting all the other maps as well
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} hmmm... then they must know that you will, sooner or later, have to expand overseas
[22:42] {DeepO} but I don't think you'r mind
[22:42] {DeepO} you're right, but that was already clear in the beginning
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} and they also know that your economy is WAY above theirs
[22:43] {DeepO} as we said from the beginning, we have little land...
[22:43] {DeepO} true
[22:43] {DeepO} but we can't blame that Bob doesn't improve their land
[22:43] {DeepO} be blamed
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} re: map - I haven't realized we got other maps, too - focused on your land only
[22:44] {DeepO} as you will have seen, our land is as we said: not very good, but well used
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} true (re: no blame)
[22:44] {DeepO} ah...
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} yep, agreed
[22:44] {DeepO} did you learn anything shockingly new?
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} I would not say so
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} new, yes
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} shockingly new, no
[22:45] {DeepO} okay.. so we were right in selling our map at that moment
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} yes, you could put it that way
[22:45] {DeepO} it still holds some value, but not too much
[22:45] {DeepO} hey, but it was cheap
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack}
[22:45] {DeepO} Vox:
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:46] {DeepO} they should have be gone next turn, if all's right
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} yes, that's we have been told
[22:46] {DeepO} right now (I'm not sure if you have the save yet) they have 1 city remaing
[22:46] {DeepO} and a couple of troops on our territory
[22:47] {DeepO} so next turn, you have a new neighbour
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack}
[22:47] {DeepO} also, we kind of solved the upkeep question
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} yeah, should be exiciting
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} *exciting
[22:47] {DeepO} by asking them to stay in anarchy for a while
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} ?
[22:47] {DeepO} lots of troops, little money
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} ah, that's probably a good idea
[22:48] {DeepO} just in case they're asking for money... you already give the land
[22:48] {DeepO} so no need to sponsor them too hard
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} LoL
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} no worries
[22:48] {DeepO} bah, right now Vox can't really touch us anymore
[22:48] {DeepO} so we wish them the best, and hope to keep dealing with them
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} right
[22:49] {DeepO} which maybe can be done by giving them a 40-turn tech to research
[22:49] {DeepO} of course, again in agreement with you
[22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} yes, that's an idea we discussed with them
[22:49] {DeepO} did you mention to any Bobian civ what you were going for?
[22:49] {DeepO} we didn't, I think
[22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} nope - nothing beyond what leaked in the public forum
[22:50] {DeepO} but probably they are starting on 40-turn techs as well
[22:50] {DeepO} okay...
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} I would expect that (40t research), yes
[22:50] {DeepO} how could we coordinate research to benefit us best?
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} with us or with them?
[22:51] {DeepO} I mean coordinate Bob's research
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} hehe
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} no idea
[22:51] {DeepO} we already know you goals
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} I expect GoW to go after Invention
[22:51] {DeepO} with their GL prebuild?
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} looks like a prebuild for Leo?
[22:51] {DeepO} could be
[22:52] {DeepO} buut they seem to be stalling it
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} would make sense
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} even stalling would make sense
[22:52] {DeepO} did you have agreements for Sistine with all of them?
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} in a way
[22:52] {DeepO} as long as you're not lossing shields, yes
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} I do not think I am at liberty to answer your last question
[22:52] {DeepO} but when war breaks out? we wouldn't do it as a militaristic civ
[22:53] {DeepO} okay, no prob
[22:53] {DeepO} I could always ask
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} yes, of course
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} well, ND would bear the brunt of the RP counteroffensive (if there was any)
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} so GoW may keep prebuilding...
[22:53] {DeepO} don't know...
[22:54] {DeepO} it depends on naval activities
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} since they are not directly threatened
[22:54] {DeepO} remember Inchon?
[22:54] {DeepO} (not to brag, mind you)
[22:54] {DeepO} but we gave them the idea
[22:54] {DeepO} we fear...
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} that was over a distance that was MUCH shorter
[22:54] {DeepO} not really
[22:55] {DeepO} but it was easier because of sea waters we could use, avoiding spotting
[22:55] {DeepO} on coastal waters
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} yeah
[22:55] {DeepO} once they have astro... it's basically the same
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} and where would they get Astro
[22:56] {DeepO} well.. hence my question
[22:56] {DeepO} it might be one of the tings you could support them with
[22:56] {DeepO} buut I'm not sure if it is wanted
[22:56] {DeepO} (of course, it also threatens us too)
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} ATM, that (Astro) is not a subject of any negotiations
[22:57] {DeepO} okay, that's good to hear
[22:57] {DeepO} so... what about etas for our techs?
[22:58] {DeepO} if we or you want to support RP with money, we need to delay tech trading
[22:58] {DeepO} right now, we spend a bit of money on rushing some buildings in place
[22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} 10 or 11 turns for us on Astro, I think
[22:58] {DeepO} and IIRC, we could have banking in 8 or so turns, but would prefer a bit later
[22:59] {DeepO} 11 turns seem a good start...
[22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:59] {DeepO} come to think of it, we might need a more rigid deal if we want to race ahead
[23:00] {DeepO} I mean, 20 turn NDA won't be enough
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} true
[23:00] {DeepO} if we don't want to start distrusting each other
[23:00] {DeepO} and we don't want that
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} I think I did mention that we would be ok with eternal NDAs
[23:00] {DeepO} yes... but those also have problems
[23:00] {DeepO} it's not that we anticipate us ever declaring war on you, but you never know
[23:01] {DeepO} and... even in war, our code would prevent us from reselling
[23:01] {DeepO} hmmm... tricky...
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} feel free to come up with whatever suits you best
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} we are not really in the reselling business that much
[23:02] {DeepO} us neither
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} more in the researching bsusiness
[23:02] {DeepO} but again, you never know what happens
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} though still way behind yourself
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} yes, agreed
[23:02] {DeepO} I don't think so
[23:02] {DeepO} I mean Re: researching speed
[23:02] {DeepO} we still lack a couple of buildings...
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} but with "eternal NDAs" - you can always renegotiate on case by case basis
[23:03] {DeepO} agree
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} it is just that you do not need to worry about the NDA running out
[23:03] {DeepO} which eventually it may lead to anyway
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} which is the case with GoW ATM, e.g.
[23:03] {DeepO} also Re: chivalry?
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} ?
[23:04] {DeepO} I mean, do you have an eternal NDA on Chiv?
[23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} nope
[23:04] {DeepO} aha
[23:04] {DeepO} I feared we were the only one able to sell it to RP
[23:05] {DeepO} Ah, I see... I missed one of your sentences above
[23:05] {DeepO} sorry about the confusion
[23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} np

[DeepO]

continued...

[23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} hey! I just spotted something!
[23:05] {DeepO} ?
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} I have the latest save loaded in the background
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} checking things as we talk
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} we can trade!
[23:06] {DeepO} so... I was right all along!
[23:06] {DeepO} that should be the lighthouse at work...
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} that must be the harbour of Zargonia + The Great Lighthouse
[23:06] {DeepO} care for a lux-lux trade?
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} we finished the harbour last turn
[23:06] {DeepO} aha... cool!
[23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} well, we have only one lux, but if you are interested, we will go for it, of course
[23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} (dyes)
[23:07] {DeepO} oh, sure, we can always use lux
[23:07] {DeepO} I'll have to check, but I think you have the choice: incense or furs
[23:08] {DeepO} maybe even both...
[23:08] {DeepO} (not against your dyes only, of course)
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} I think simple 1lux for 1lux would be the way to go ATM
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} we are not really drowning in money ATM
[23:08] {DeepO} which would be fine for us, I'm sure
[23:08] {DeepO} okay, I understand
[23:09] {DeepO} but neither are we
[23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} and with the RP begging for gold...
[23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} right
[23:09] {DeepO} maybe some further rules:
[23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} yes?
[23:09] {DeepO} to try to get a proposal going
[23:09] {DeepO} we consider lux-lux trades as indefinate
[23:09] {DeepO} in that we don't keep to 20-turn rules
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} fine with us
[23:10] {DeepO} but... in case we would cancel a deal, we give teams a 1-turn warning
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} ok
[23:10] {DeepO} just so no cities go into disorder
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} good
[23:10] {DeepO} if that suits you, I'll try to get a PM going
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} yes, sounds like a deal
[23:11] {DeepO} and you could offer furs this turn,
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} dyes?
[23:11] {DeepO} so that we don't deny each other the lux
[23:11] {DeepO} sorry, dyes
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} ok
[23:11] {DeepO} hey, that was an easy deal
[23:11] {DeepO} it took us about 2 minutes
[23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} yeah, you're a pushover...
[23:12] {DeepO} sorry about that
[23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} LoL
[23:12] {DeepO} I hope 'poly is up again, so we can finalize this in our forum asap
[23:13] {DeepO} I mean, there won't be any problem, but it has to be ratified by the team
[23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} ok, I will post about it in our forum, too
[23:13] {DeepO} great
[23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} same with us
[23:13] {DeepO} anything else?
[23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} prolly not
[23:13] {DeepO} I'm a getting a bit empty here
[23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} ok, let's get some sleep then
[23:14] {DeepO} fine... I hope to see you soon
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} give our best regards to your people
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} take care
[23:14] {DeepO} and I hope I'll get back to my Sundays
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack}
[23:14] {DeepO} sweet dreams!
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} you too
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} bye
Session Close: Thu Jul 17 23:14:36 2003

[DeepO]

[quote]Hello Vondrack,

I hope this gets to you in time (i.e. before 'poly crashes down again ): a more formal agreement on our lux-lux trade. It includes the 'special' conditions of the trade, as mentioned in last chat. If any of this does not suit you, please let me know, and we can regenotiate. (although it may be best to contact either Arrian or nye in that case, I will probably not be able to respond for at least the next 24h)

1. Legoland and Gathering Storm agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting GS's furs in return (if you rather want incense, let us know).

2. This deal is considered indefinate, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines.

3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state). However, if this deal gets canceled, the cancelling team should warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder.

4. As always, the spirit of this agreement is more important then its exact wording, in case any doubts arise, renegotiation between the teams should occur

Ratified by Gathering Storm[.quote]

kind regards,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Vondrack,

thanks for the deal, I'm sure we will enjoy the dyes (Aeson was asking about orange ones ) Furs will be on their way as we speak.

As for the chat: I wanted to contact you, I'm currently still busy reading our forum, and want to get up to date before chatting with you. Would it be possible to chat tomorrow, perhaps? I've got a free day, so I'll be available until late tonight, but still have several pages to read... and the discussion has been swining greatly, so I don't know our official stance for the moment. Don't want to give you any wrong ideas...

kind regards,
DeepO

Hello, DeepO!

I guess the chat we had earlier this week has replaced the Sunday chat that would otherwise be held today... I have sent the save on to your team a couple of minutes ago. Offered dyes, as promised. I assume you'll counter with furs and we will seal the deal on the next turn.

Here goes the signed lux trade agreement:

1. Legoland and Gathering Storm agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting GS's furs in return.

2. This deal is considered indefinate, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines.

3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state). However, if this deal gets canceled, the cancelling team should warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder.

4. As always, the spirit of this agreement is more important then its exact wording, in case any doubts arise, renegotiation between the teams should occur

Ratified by Gathering Storm

Signed on behalf of Legoland,
vondrack, the FAM

[DeepO]

No problem, DeepO, just PM me any time tomorrow.

Good night,
vondrack

[DeepO]

Hi Vondrack,

do you have time to chat now? I'd very much like to do this before another team gets the save, a lot has changed the past few hours and I'd love to hear your opinions on this...

I'm trying to get into the poly server, without much luck for the time being. Which is why I don't know if you're present there or not (haven't contacted you on a workday before, so I don't know if you are occupied)

DeepO

[DeepO]

Thanks Vondrack

I'm still trying to get in... for some reason or another, I always have loads of trouble connecting to apolyton.net

If this keeps up for anotherr 10 minutes, could we perhaps meet somewhere else?

DeepO

Hi, DeepO!

I am ready to chat. Waiting in the lobby (main Apolyton IRC chatroom).

Cheers,
vondrack

[DeepO]

Session Start: Mon Jul 21 14:04:09 2003
[14:04] } Successfully joined #blabla at 2:04pm
[14:04] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0
[14:04] } Channel Modes: +
[14:04] } Created on Monday, July 21st, 2003 at 2:05pm
[14:04] *** Retrieving #blabla info...
[14:04] [2:04pm] DeepO sets mode: +nps
[14:04] [2:04pm] DeepO sets mode: +k boemboem
[14:04] -} *Vondrack* I'm in!
[14:05] -} *Vondrack* Please join #blabla , pwd = boemboem
[14:06] [2:06pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «2 people»
[14:06] [2:06pm] {vondrack} hello!
[14:06] {DeepO} hello there!
[14:06] {DeepO} thanks you could make it in such short notice
[14:06] {DeepO} but I think it will interest you...
[14:06] [2:06pm] {vondrack} no problem - I am working from home
[14:07] [2:07pm] {vondrack} ok, go ahead
[14:07] {DeepO} ah, okay
[14:07] {DeepO} the past few days, we have been discussing how to help RP
[14:07] {DeepO} and stabilize Bob.
[14:07] {DeepO} as we didn't want to give them money,
[14:07] {DeepO} and after seeing their military situation (at least to as far as they want to disclose it)
[14:08] {DeepO} we decided to intervene...
[14:08] {DeepO} we currently have the 2 cities in our position that were most threatened by Nd and GoW
[14:08] {DeepO} if they attack us, we go to Bob
[14:08] [2:08pm] {vondrack} you mean possession?
[14:08] {DeepO} not sure how it will move after that
[14:08] {DeepO} yes... they were gifted by RP
[14:08] {DeepO} they were certain losses
[14:08] [2:08pm] {vondrack} ah, I see
[14:09] [2:09pm] {vondrack} which ones?
[14:09] {DeepO} Santiago on the ND side
[14:09] {DeepO} and Bilbao on the GoW side
[14:09] [2:09pm] {vondrack} hmmm... we were offered Santiago and Leon, IIRC
[14:09] {DeepO} Leon?
[14:09] [2:09pm] {vondrack} I think so
[14:09] {DeepO} strange... but it could be that this will continue
[14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} let me check
[14:10] {DeepO} did you accept?
[14:10] {DeepO} thanks
[14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} nope
[14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} we cannot
[14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} (treaty obligations)
[14:10] {DeepO} ah, yes
[14:10] {DeepO} forgot about that
[14:10] {DeepO} actually, we never agreed to not go to Bob
[14:10] {DeepO} but there are treatie(s) in place
[14:11] {DeepO} can't disclose them, but it will be interested if they get broken
[14:11] [2:11pm] {vondrack} yes, Santiago and Leon it was
[14:11] {DeepO} Bilbao is a certain loss, but it will autoraze if attacked
[14:12] {DeepO} we're mighty curtious to see if GoW would do it
[14:12] {DeepO} ND we kind of expect to attack us
[14:12] {DeepO} I want to stress that this should not hamper other plans
[14:12] {DeepO} I mean, for the moment, we're still on par with research
[14:13] [2:13pm] {vondrack} ok
[14:13] {DeepO} at least that's what we hope
[14:13] [2:13pm] {vondrack} btw - no problem, if you slow down a bit
[14:13] {DeepO} well... one or 2 turns could work
[14:13] {DeepO} it would help, of course
[14:13] {DeepO} but our larger goal still is to speed along in research
[14:13] [2:13pm] {vondrack} we do not need Banking on the very same turn we finish Astro
[14:14] [2:14pm] {vondrack} so - feel free to set the pace that suits you best
[14:14] {DeepO} okay, that's nice
[14:14] {DeepO} thanks!
[14:14] [2:14pm] {vondrack} hmmm... this is big news, it really is
[14:14] {DeepO} if I can ask, does this 'invasion' of Bob worry you?
[14:15] {DeepO} well, we wanted to let you know before uyou would find out on the public forum
[14:15] [2:15pm] {vondrack} well, at least, it is something we have to consider thoroughly
[14:15] [2:15pm] {vondrack} my first impression would be 'worried', yes
[14:15] {DeepO} main goal is to stablize Bob, and how the RP situation looked, it was a lost cause
[14:15] {DeepO} I can imagine... sorry about that
[14:15] [2:15pm] {vondrack} though there are so many consequences that we will have to mull them over a bit
[14:16] {DeepO} buut we needed to do something, or we would be facing a 2-civ Bob in less then 10 turns
[14:16] [2:16pm] {vondrack} if you believe it is the best way, there certainly must be good reasons to do so
[14:16] {DeepO} please contact me whenever you want more info
[14:16] [2:16pm] {vondrack} ok, I will
[14:16] {DeepO} well... it seems RP was defending our coast as well
[14:16] [2:16pm] {vondrack} thanks for the heads-up
[14:16] {DeepO} and so have verry few defenders in place
[14:17] [2:17pm] {vondrack} did they submit any evidence of what they say?
[14:17] {DeepO} we've seen screenshots, yes
[14:17] [2:17pm] {vondrack} ok
[14:17] {DeepO} otherwise I don't think we would have gone for it
[14:17] [2:17pm] {vondrack} right, yes
[14:17] {DeepO} and as much as we distrust RP
[14:17] {DeepO} we don't think they will doctor screenies
[14:18] [2:18pm] {vondrack} I wonder why is their powergraph so mighty then?
[14:18] {DeepO} amount of cities...
[14:18] {DeepO} plus, they have a large number of troops
[14:18] {DeepO} but those are spread out
[14:18] {DeepO} and can't defend adequately against 3-move UUs
[14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} yeah, that's true - they have overstretched big time
[14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} pure greed, I would say
[14:19] {DeepO} in hindsight, they needed to defend our coast
[14:19] {DeepO} indeed (to the greed)
[14:19] {DeepO} of course, we will not do this for nothing
[14:19] {DeepO} we might end up with a couple of cities in RPs land
[14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} oh? you will not???
[14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack}
[14:19] {DeepO} well... stablisation is one point
[14:20] {DeepO} but we're not foolish either
[14:20] {DeepO} as you said before, we need to have some expansion
[14:20] {DeepO} buut for the moment, all territory discussion revolve around one point:
[14:20] {DeepO} we take territory which makes us safer
[14:20] {DeepO} meaning we avoid RP having 1-turn crossings to Stormia
[14:21] {DeepO} what we will get will be horribly corrupt, though
[14:21] [2:21pm] opd (~dwyerowen@82-36-92-149.cable.ubr04.harb.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined. «3 people»
[14:21] {DeepO} hi opd
[14:21] [2:21pm] {opd} lo
[14:21] [2:21pm] {vondrack} hello!
[14:21] {DeepO} I just told Vondrack about us getting a couple of cities
[14:21] [2:21pm] {vondrack} does this include New Madrid?
[14:22] {DeepO} perhaps... not for the moment
[14:22] [2:22pm] {opd} cool
[14:22] {DeepO} but we might need it if we are going to land troops
[14:22] {DeepO} and take on one of the other teams...
[14:22] {DeepO} discussion is still on-going
[14:23] {DeepO} and we're not looking to become one of 2-civ Bob
[14:23] {DeepO} if forced... well... who can say
[14:24] [2:24pm] {vondrack} well, not much else to say ATM, I guess
[14:24] [2:24pm] {vondrack} I have to take this to the team
[14:24] {DeepO} yes, please do
[14:24] {DeepO} but keep us informed of what you think
[14:24] {DeepO} we highly value your opinions
[14:24] {DeepO} and will proceed according to them
[14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} ATM, just one thing:
[14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} be WARY of RPers
[14:25] {DeepO}
[14:25] [2:25pm] {opd} how do you mean?
[14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} 'accusations' read in the public forum were not based on nothing
[14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} they promised help right and left
[14:26] {DeepO} Vox?
[14:26] [2:26pm] {vondrack} never kept their word
[14:26] {DeepO} the point is, we can't let this happen
[14:26] [2:26pm] {vondrack} understood
[14:26] {DeepO} the only other option would have been to attack RP
[14:26] {DeepO} but gangin up on an already won war... not our style
[14:26] [2:26pm] {vondrack} all I say is: stay vigilant...
[14:26] [2:26pm] {opd} have they broken their word to you before?
[14:26] {DeepO} at least this will make it interesting
[14:27] [2:27pm] {vondrack} opd - I could not formulate it this way, no
[14:27] {DeepO} Do you have more info on Vox?
[14:27] {DeepO} as we would want them to understand this as well
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} with Beta gone for vacations, our contact are sparse these days
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} the game is slow anyway
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} we expect their arrival at Legos Minor
[14:28] {DeepO} yes, but heated
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} yup
[14:28] {DeepO} next turn, everything should be ready
[14:28] {DeepO} we made the final step this turn
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} ok then
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} I will report to my team
[14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} and let you know if there is anything
[14:29] {DeepO} ok, thanks for hearing us out!
[14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} worth further discussion
[14:29] {DeepO} very true
[14:29] {DeepO} we'll leave you to work, then
[14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} my pleasure - and thanks for keeping us informed
[14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack}
[14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} have a nice... errr, I mean: take care
[14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack}
[14:29] {DeepO}
[14:29] {DeepO} bye
[14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} bye
[14:29] [2:29pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «2 people»
[14:29] {DeepO} opd, I have a log
[14:30] {DeepO} will post it shortly
[14:30] {DeepO} see you in the forum, then
[14:30] {DeepO} bye
Session Close: Mon Jul 21 14:30:42 2003

[DeepO]

[22:37] [10:37pm] Kloreep (~ben@66-90-194-60.grandecom.net) has joined. «3 people»
[22:37] [10:37pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «4 people»
[22:37] {DeepO} hi there!
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} hello!
[22:37] [10:37pm] {Kloreep} Hi!
[22:37] {DeepO} and welcome
[22:37] {DeepO} our eye is already present
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} )
[22:37] {DeepO} are more people joining, or can we start?
[22:38] [10:38pm] Sharpe (Sharpe@dhcp-0-7-e9-cf-5a-ad.cpe.mountaincable.net) has joined. «5 people»
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} I think we can start
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} NOW
[22:38] {DeepO} hi
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack}
[22:38] {DeepO}
[22:38] {DeepO} well, my main agenda point for tonight is to find out what you guys think about our involvement on Bob
[22:38] {DeepO} I hope you had time to discuss it since last time...
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} hmmm... good luck then
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} not really
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} with Poly going down very frequently
[22:39] {DeepO} ah, that's true
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} we havenùt had the grand chat we were planning for
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} but we used the forum a bit
[22:39] {DeepO} okay... so any intermediate points then?
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} not sure how and where to start...
[22:39] {DeepO} just shoot...
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} let's say we are not overly excited about RPers handing you one city after another...
[22:40] {DeepO} I can imagine that
[22:40] {DeepO} but... that's only temporary
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} temporary?
[22:41] {DeepO} at least we hope...
[22:41] {DeepO} yes. they needed a shorter defense line
[22:41] {DeepO} they have that for the moment
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} so, you plan to give them back to RP?
[22:41] {DeepO} I don't think more cities will follow
[22:41] {DeepO} indeed... although the specifics have to be decided later
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} I see
[22:42] {DeepO} don't forget, our main reason for presence is stablization
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} what was that with Inchon?
[22:42] {DeepO} ah... sorry, can't comment on that for the moment
[22:42] {DeepO} a bit too strategic
[22:42] {DeepO} in a few turns, I'm sure it can get into the open
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:43] {DeepO} did you tell GoW or ND about Inchon?
[22:43] {DeepO} they shuoldn't have noticed it...
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} nope, I do not think so
[22:43] {DeepO} thanks
[22:43] [10:43pm] Aeson (~aeson@dpc6682047049.direcpc.com) has joined. «6 people»
[22:43] {DeepO} Hi aeson
[22:43] {DeepO} we're just starting...
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Aeson} hello
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} hello, Aeson!
[22:44] {DeepO} our main concern is to keep RP and GoW from overrunning RP
[22:44] {DeepO} and it seems, so far everything is going according to plan
[22:44] {DeepO} buut I can easily see how this is worrying for you guys
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Aeson} hi vondrack
[22:45] {DeepO} so, as much as possible, we would like to keep you informed
[22:45] {DeepO} but please understand we can't spoil too much strategic info...
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} np
[22:45] {DeepO} are you still commited on keeping RP in the game?
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} yes, I think we could say that so
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} though - it does depend on what "keeping in the game" actually means
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} we do not have any other Legos Minor...
[22:46] {DeepO} please explain?
[22:47] {DeepO} ah, no of course
[22:47] [10:47pm] {Sharpe} Two questions: what are GoW doing with their forces in the east and what is happening with RP's iron situation now that they have lost Vigo
[22:47] {DeepO} we have iron enough... buut nothing is decided when and if we're going to give it to them
[22:47] {DeepO} we will not hold it from them
[22:47] {DeepO} but maybe a period of ironless RP is better for them
[22:48] {DeepO} I think that's more their decision, so can't really comment on that
[22:48] {DeepO} GoW:
[22:48] {DeepO} this turn, they 'invaded' our territory near Bilbao
[22:48] {DeepO} they haven't attacked us, but well... they are in our territory now
[22:48] [10:48pm] {Sharpe} I suspect we are going to be seeing the Battle for Zaragoza for a while
[22:49] {DeepO} don't know
[22:49] {DeepO} that will depend on ND
[22:49] {DeepO} if we can keep GoW away from Zara
[22:49] {DeepO} it should become a bloody battle
[22:49] {DeepO} and not a rush
[22:49] {DeepO} but nothing is certain here...
[22:50] [10:50pm] {Kloreep} ND could also push toward Pamplona... assuming Pamplona doesn't have walls, it's the same defense bonus.
[22:50] {DeepO} to be honest, we played most of our cards, the ball is in GoW's field now
[22:50] [10:50pm] {Sharpe} I was suspecting that they might be trying to get RP's only horse
[22:50] {DeepO} Pamplona is another option... but again, without GoW, it will become bloody
[22:50] {DeepO} which is still an option (horse)
[22:51] {DeepO} and we don't have spare horses to give out
[22:51] {DeepO} atm, the war is very undecided
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} is it?
[22:51] {DeepO} which is all we could have done
[22:51] {DeepO} yes... it can turn both sides
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} the RP losses is the West seem to be quite significant...
[22:52] {DeepO} well... that was lost anyway
[22:52] {DeepO} they have overstretched big time
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} agreed
[22:52] {DeepO} and couldn't defend it all
[22:52] [10:52pm] {Sharpe} I can't believe RP didn't defend the west better, we suspected ND would invade via there
[22:52] {DeepO} now, they have a chance, even without direct military help from us
[22:52] {DeepO} true, but they also have an East to worry about
[22:53] {DeepO} as long as GoW doesn't attack us, their East is safe...
[22:53] [10:53pm] {Sharpe} are you going after ND directly due to their attack against you?
[22:53] {DeepO} and frankly, we were the only ones who would be so big a deterrent that they even hesitate to attack us
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} do you have any military presence on Bob?
[22:54] {DeepO} well, we are at war... and they started it.
[22:54] {DeepO} sorry, can't disclose that for now
[22:55] {DeepO} it's a bit frustrating for me that I have to keep this kind of info from you
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} )
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} yeah
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} your agenda seems to be
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} to make us feel comfortable
[22:55] {DeepO} I trust you fully, but we can't risk any of this leaking to ND-GoW...
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} without telling us anything...
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} np
[22:55] {DeepO} well, you should be comfortable...
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} even no answers are answers...
[22:56] {DeepO} it's true, I'm sorry if this is also frustrating for you
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} no problem... let me put it this way:
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} for us, the 'Bobian agenda' is actually equal
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} to maintaining the balance of power there
[22:57] {DeepO} us = GS + Lego?
[22:57] {DeepO} ah, yes
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} as long as there is a balance of power there
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} we are not likely to intervene
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} once the balance is gone or shifts to where we would not be happy about it
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} we will be likely to intervene
[22:58] {DeepO} of course, no problems
[22:58] {DeepO} but... if we hadn't intervened, the balance would have shifted biig time
[22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} true
[22:58] {DeepO} and we would have become the smallest civ, after Vox
[22:58] {DeepO} which is why I hope you wouldn't mind if in the end, we get a bit of territory on Bob
[22:59] {DeepO} nothing fancy, though
[22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} define "a bit", please
[22:59] [10:59pm] {Sharpe} err it is not likely that you would become the smallest civ ...
[22:59] {DeepO} and again, this will depend on the Bobian teams
[22:59] {DeepO} small: a couple of cities, strategically important to us
[22:59] {DeepO} to keep us safe.
[23:00] {DeepO} oh, and Sharpe: we're already becoming smaller
[23:00] [11:00pm] {Aeson} only 205 tiles on Stormia (DeepO is talking 'potential')
[23:00] {DeepO} our territory is about the smallest there is
[23:00] {DeepO} indeed
[23:00] {DeepO} in the long term, of course
[23:01] {DeepO} and nearly 800 on Bob?
[23:01] {DeepO} buut again, if ND makes this into a holy war
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} I believe you understand that we are not going to 'approve' or 'disapprove' your plans re: Bob - first, you do not need our approval to carry them out
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} second
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} there is little that can be said without knowing specifics
[23:02] {DeepO} it's not so much about approval
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} "a couple of strategically important cities" is a broad term...
[23:02] {DeepO} as it is in keeping all options from you
[23:02] {DeepO} hmm, true
[23:02] [11:02pm] {Aeson} 655 on Bob IIRC
[23:02] {DeepO} ah, ok
[23:02] [11:02pm] {Aeson} or something in the area
[23:02] {DeepO} you see, nothing is set in stone yet
[23:03] {DeepO} which means we can't say exactly what we will get from this war
[23:03] {DeepO} and... even if we shifted the balance back to the middle again
[23:03] [11:03pm] nbarclay (~nbarclay@rbn1-216-180-19-143.adsl.hiwaay.net) has joined. «7 people»
[23:03] {DeepO} this war is long from being over
[23:03] {DeepO} hi Nathan
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} hello, Nathan!
[23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} Hi. I didn't pick up on the chat's being going on until a few seconds ago.
[23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} Sorry I'm late.
[23:04] {DeepO} ah, sorry... I did post about it
[23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} And I was too busy in other threads to catch it.
[23:04] {DeepO} oops... so I have some more reading to do
[23:05] {DeepO} Vondrack, about getting 'approval'
[23:05] {DeepO} this is not what we need per se
[23:05] {DeepO} but we want to avoid that because you only hear one side of the story
[23:05] {DeepO} you would get the idea we're here for our own interests only.
[23:06] {DeepO} I mean, stablisation is of course our interest
[23:06] [11:06pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-199-245.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «8 people»
[23:06] [11:06pm] {redstar1} jesus. who makes your passwords
[23:06] {DeepO} but our plan is not about conquering the whole of Bob
[23:06] {DeepO}
[23:06] {DeepO} hi redstar1
[23:06] [11:06pm] {redstar1} hey guys
[23:06] {DeepO} these are rather normal words in Dutch
[23:07] {DeepO} which makes them quite safe... nobody understands them
[23:07] [11:07pm] {redstar1} lol
[23:07] [11:07pm] {Sharpe} remind me not to get a welsh person to choose any passwords with the length of their words
[23:07] {DeepO}
[23:07] {DeepO} I just copy those
[23:09] [11:09pm] {Sharpe} to be honest there has been some concern about you guys going for a domination victory
[23:09] {DeepO} Sharpe... we don't have enough with all of Bob, and Stormia
[23:09] {DeepO} so that's not really an option
[23:09] {DeepO} at least not for the moment
[23:09] {DeepO} you on the other hand...
[23:10] [11:10pm] {Kloreep} So the concern goes both ways, I guess?
[23:10] {DeepO} of course
[23:10] {DeepO} and Bob knows this
[23:10] {DeepO} they have been trying to set us up against each other since the first turn
[23:10] [11:10pm] {Sharpe} true, and how!
[23:10] {DeepO} I'm pretty sure you were approached with plans of conquering us
[23:11] {DeepO} and we have been too, in major ways
[23:11] [11:11pm] {Sharpe} and vice versa
[23:11] {DeepO} of course...
[23:11] {DeepO} but as much as possible, we want to keep isolated from their machinations
[23:11] [11:11pm] {Sharpe} ironically the two of us combined are now a lot stronger than the 3 Bob civs combined
[23:11] {DeepO} ... until GoW gets their GA
[23:12] {DeepO} actually, that still make it very viable for us to work together
[23:12] [11:12pm] {Sharpe} ND is obviously in their GA now
[23:12] {DeepO} and I personally would prefer working together, then having to worry about yet another backstabbing 'friend'
[23:13] {DeepO} ND is in their GA, yes
[23:14] [11:14pm] {Sharpe} don't worry , we are peaceful builders
[23:14] {DeepO} yeah... until everything is fully build up
[23:14] {DeepO} and here we are, wanting to be builders
[23:14] {DeepO} but we get dragged into war after war...
[23:15] {DeepO} so we try to make the best out of it
[23:15] [11:15pm] {Kloreep} At least you don't have to fight it on Estonia this time.
[23:15] [11:15pm] {Sharpe} yeah, being the #1 civ does give a target on your back
[23:15] {DeepO} not for the moment... and let's hope that will stay that way
[23:15] [11:15pm] {nbarclay} We don't have to fight on Estonia yet.
[23:16] [11:16pm] {nbarclay} But if GoW takes a notion to join ND in the fight against us, we aren't exactly that far from Port Isolation.
[23:16] {DeepO} brb; need a drink
[23:16] [11:16pm] {Sharpe} so how far are you guys from Banking?
[23:17] [11:17pm] {nbarclay} That depends on how we balance research and military spending.
[23:17] [11:17pm] {nbarclay} Wars tend to put a crimp in research spending.
[23:17] [11:17pm] {Sharpe} true
[23:18] [11:18pm] {nbarclay} What's your estimate on Astronomy?
[23:19] [11:19pm] {vondrack} let me see
[23:20] [11:20pm] {nbarclay} If we don't suffer any major problems that force us to push military spending hard, we can probably try to get Banking around the same time or not much later.
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} well, I could also talk about various other uses for gold... ...but it is about 7-8 turns. We can make it a bit faster, if needs be
[23:21] {DeepO} that's what we thought from previous estimates, I think
[23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} does that fit well with your Banking research schedule?
[23:21] {DeepO} you wouldn't mind if the trade came let's say 2 turns later?
[23:22] {DeepO} we can make that... but not sure if we want to...
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} I do not think that would be a problem
[23:22] {DeepO} the thing is not so much our military... but we now kind of support to economies
[23:22] {DeepO} two
[23:23] [11:23pm] {vondrack} we do not plan to research anything Banking-dependent after getting it anyway...
[23:23] [11:23pm] {nbarclay} Ten turns from now could probably fit our plans pretty well if all goes more or less as expected.
[23:23] [11:23pm] {vondrack} ok, if 10 turns is your ETA, there is no problem
[23:23] {DeepO} that's cool
[23:24] {DeepO} it was an issue on our last deal that was not fully decided yet
[23:24] {DeepO} I mean, we intentionally left it open...
[23:24] {DeepO} and I don't see us selling banking to anyone but you soon
[23:24] {DeepO} btw, do you have an agreement with Vox on what they';ll research?
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} yes, we do
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} but ATM, they can research very little
[23:25] {DeepO} true... 40 turn research is not much
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} so it's a 40-turn project, naturally
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} yes
[23:26] {DeepO} but at least it's something... I don't see Bob going for anything more either
[23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} true
[23:26] {DeepO} so if we can research at least one tech before those 40 turns end, we should be both one turn in the lead
[23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} one tech?
[23:26] {DeepO} ehh... grammar is starting to fail
[23:27] {DeepO} well, if Bob goes for one tech, and we can get at least 2 in the mean time...
[23:27] {DeepO} I think our plan to go for econ still holds
[23:27] {DeepO} but there has been very little discussion about that lately
[23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} ok, fine
[23:27] {DeepO} have you decided on what to research after astro yet?
[23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} one of the optional techs, probably...
[23:28] {DeepO} okay
[23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} still hoping to trade for Invention
[23:29] {DeepO} invention?
[23:29] {DeepO} anyone researching that?
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} well, I would expect that
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} since it is on the path to gunpowder
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} am I wrong?
[23:29] {DeepO} no, I think so...
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} I mean - you have info that NOBODY researches Invention?
[23:30] {DeepO} but as engineering has been only researched...
[23:30] [11:30pm] {nbarclay} If GoW and/or ND are researching at all, one of them is probably going for Invention. GoW can't build Leo's without it if that's what their plans for the Great Library build are.
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} not even a 40-turn research?
[23:30] {DeepO} no, not really
[23:30] {DeepO} you understand that ND and GoW aren't exactly sollicting info to us for the moment
[23:30] [11:30pm] {nbarclay} But I don't know how GoW and ND are balancing research against rush building and upgrading (if they have anything they haven't already upgraded).
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} yes, I can imagine that
[23:31] {DeepO} let's hope they do some rushbuilding
[23:31] {DeepO} keeps them smaller in the long term
[23:31] {DeepO} well.. if they don't use those uinits to conquer us, of course
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} LoL
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} well... anything else on our agenda today?
[23:32] {DeepO} not for me...
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} it seems I have a lot to catch up in the forums
[23:32] {DeepO} but if anything remains: just contact me
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} have been aaway for this weekend
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} ok, I will
[23:33] {DeepO} and I need to sleep my anniversary weekend off
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack}
[23:33] {DeepO} way too much partying
[23:33] {DeepO} anybody else?
[23:34] {DeepO} in that case, I would say: sweet dreams to all of you
[23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} ok, then - guys, thanks for the chat and for the information, however... ahem... 'sparse' it was
[23:34] {DeepO} sorry, can't be helped
[23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} to you, too
[23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} I know - just kidding
[23:34] {DeepO} and thanks for the chat... let's keep this going
[23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} ok, talk to you next Sunday
[23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} bye
[23:35] {DeepO} bye everyone
Session Close: Sun Jul 27 23:35:28 2003

[DeepO]

Vondrack,

it's good that you inform me before more draconic measures are decided upon: New Madrid will be in possession of RP in their next turn (50 AD). We needed it for 2 turns, to make sure we can build a beachhead in their cultural borders without having to declare war, and to facilitate transporting our troops to the front.

AFAIK, it never was intended that we would gain New Madrid out of the treaty with RP, it was a temporary transfer, just like all the other cities we were gifted thus far. Of all the RP cities, only the harbor cities on their East coast interest us, and in establishing another harbor town of ourselves (taking minimal territory, as it will be very close to New Madrid) we will gain the strategic, defensive position we set out for. We consider that a small price to pay for the loss of troops we will undoubtedly suffer in defending RP. Those cities that we want will stay with RP for as long as they can be defended (which hopefully means until the end of the war): for us, these would be highly corrupt cities, and in RP's hands they can produce a lot more. And RP is going to need all the production it can muster. They are nowhere near resigning (I haven't heard any rumour of it, on the contrary, they're optimistic to the outcome, all things considering), and I'm not sure that even in such a case, GS would accept their cities. It is not our style to win ground from a dying team.

I'm a bit sad after reading your note, although I do understand it. But it seems the GoW talks have turned you... GS is being pushed into the evil imperialistic role GoW want everybody to believe, while in reality, we only try to defend against the imperialistic nations on Bob. We would have been perfectly happy if GoW didn't broke our NAP, so that we could have defended RP through peaceful means. Now, we will have to get involved military. Again, we're foremost interested in keeping the balance intact by helping RP, it would have been quite easy to take all our troops and drop them in the middle of GoW territory, and let RP be overrun. If we really were going for Bob, that would be the tactic to follow. It would leave 2 devastated nations, instead of a slow, bloody, balanced war.

Please, ask me questions if you want to, now with the war officially going on between us and GoW, we can answer a lot more. Also, a few things can be disclosed because they won't matter anymore (like "Yes, we have troops on Bob. GoW will see the first of them next turn"). The people of GS still value a friendly relation to Legoland, and I'm sure that your concerns will be taken into account in our discussions.

Best regards,
DeepO

Esteemed Ambassador,

It is my sad duty to inform you that the people of Legoland watch the ongoing transfer of Spanish cities to Egypt with worries and diminishing understanding. With New Madrid, one of the Spanish finest production centers, handed over to you, we cannot but assume the Spaniards are more or less resigning from the game, letting you take over their positions. This unfortunately goes beyond what we expressed being content with - this is no longer "balancing the power on Bob" in our eyes, unless by "balancing the power" you actually meant seizing that power to yourself.

The people of Legoland, until now friendly and happy to trade with your glorious nation, would not be able to stay neutral in this conflict, should your armies intervene and the territory of Gathering Storm on Bob grow. The reason would be the very same as your original reason to get involved in the Great Bobian War - maintaining the balance of power.

Respectfully,
vondrack, FAM of Legoland

[DeepO]

Vondrack,

I'm sorry to have missed the chat yesterday, I came home much too late, and went straight for bed. However, if possible, I would like to reschedule it for tonight... given your last message, there are some things we need to discuss. Would 21:00 GMT suit you?

BTW, I mentioned in my last message that New Madrid was going to be returned to RP in 50 AD... but the plans have changed somewhat, we need to hold on to it for at least a couple more turns, as it can't be defended by RP against GoW (and they are threatening the city)

Hope to see you tonight,
DeepO