Turn 244 : 1270 AD Part II

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Trip
DeepO, you spammer.

Good thing this war is nearing its end, or I would turn deity in less than a week

Krill, you're mistaken. Everyone who is willing to spend an hour a day on this save is worthy for the task. Don't think I'm such a perfect player, I am not.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

Well it partly about playing skills, but others can help with that. I wonder at how many could have made all the documentation you provided and some of the task where so mountainous that it would scare most.

It does require a large commitment and if we do have another war down the road.......

Let's not forget that CH carried the weight for a long time and was the one that made it look like we could get back into it. He got little help and is still doing some of the diplo stuff.

It is a team, but a few have done yeoman work and that is why they have been mentioned especially. Now if you can talk Dom into taking the reigns, I say great.

[DeepO]

vmxa, I'm perfectly willing to keep on providing documentation. Only, not at an immediate basis anymore. And not every single day either. The problem really is about commitment, more so than skill.

Besides, why are we discussing this here, instead of in the thread I created?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Notes for next turn
- build 2 forests on Eli 7 and 8.
- if we still have a chain, rush a transport in Hurricane (actually, I think there is a marine present, but I didn't check. I certainly hope so, as I'm not going to scrap a MI, or a art for this, which means a rush is going to cost 40 gold more then strictly necessary. But we've got the cash)

- during build phase, check happiness in all our cities. Especially Sufa might get hit by ww, the others should remain relaitvely safe

- Tempest is nearly at a full food box. Before it overflows (not good), make sure to mine an irr plain to get to 0 fpt.

- we should get rubber from GoW (need to mention this in our report, which I still have to write), if we do, change a couple of our airports back to MIs. The pressure on Stormia has increased with the sudden turn this war has taken.

- once the war has ended, WoC 7 and 4 make good forest candidates as well. atm, this would make it a 98 spt city, which is too much of a waste.

- we should seriously consider moving Monsoon, if we don't know what to build we can start building workers / settlers there (probably the latter)

- SA 7 and 8 are also nice candidates for forests, as it has a spt which is higly inefficient. It would require another irr somewhere (same with WoC and Eli, of course). That would also mean pillaging SA 89, but this can wait until we're under real threat from somewhere.

- one of our next subs should hurry to Luxifou 332, to guard the passage to WW and OG.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

Not for the next turn, but we need to think about getting hospitals for a few cities. If you want to have a shot at space race, you will need some metros.

I have not look at the tech tree so I do not know if anyone has that tech, but I am guessing it was not researched this early.

[Cort Haus]

I think we've already got the metros we can have without reducing some cities to allow others to grow. I think SS parts is more about prebuild timing than spt.

[DeepO]

we've got 6 hospitals, if I'm not mistaken. We can use a couple more, but it won't give us a lot of extra spt... we're using all the land already.

However, one other thing: I wuold really want to go for minituarisation, and with the cash inflow of last turn, we could perhaps start on this, either next turn, or very shortly afterwards. As we have more universities then banks, our most efficient way of researching right now is at max tech (while still having the cash we need, of course).

Minituarisation, for 2 reasons: free research labs will be important to us, as that gains us 60 gpt, so we want the internet. But also, it is one of the few possibilities we have of increasing our spt, by building offshore platforms. And it doesn't make us a big bullseye target, as it is not on the path to either MA, nor SS.

I can imagine people have different opinions on research, so let's hear them

DeepO

[Krill]

full blast on Mini, I really want those Offshore platforms.

Internet is nice as well, so would it be possible to start a prebuild soon? Tempest Maybe, because it can start the prebuild later than the rest, and we would get it fairly quickly (what, 12-15 turns without the Mob bonus)?

[DeepO]

12 turns in Tempest, yes.

Prebuild: it all depend on when this war ends. We've got an airport to finish there, if the war ends next turn, we can switch that to a palace build (12 turns should be enough to research the tech, otherwise we delay it to 13 turns). We also have the civil defense to build, which can also start it while still in mobilization. For all the rest, we've got to wait until the end of the war.

It's a big investment, and we can only capitilize on it if we're going to build unis everywhere... but we're forced to do that anyway, to gain most out of our territory. Besides, just as with Hoover, we can't have anyone else building it

DeepO

[DeepO]

proposed report to GoW, part 2

First of all, our battle report.

Battle report turn 244: 1270 AD

1. DD stumbles into sub at Abilene 4444788 (name unknown). DD 1/4

Operation Watergrogged.
2. art bombs 5/5 BB Tipperary (or Karina? only looked after bombing). failed.
3. art bombs 5/5 BB Tipperary (or Karina). Tipperary 4/5
4. fighter bombs BB Jackson. Fighter fails.
5. 2/4 DD attacks BB Jackson. 2/4 DD destroyed. Jackson promoted to 2/5.
6. art bombs 4/5 BB Karina. Karina 2/5.
7. art bombs 4/5 Tipperary. fails
8. art bombs 4/5 Tiperrary. fails
9. art bombs 4/5 Tipperary. Tipperary 3/5
10. art bombs 3/5 Tipperary. Tipperary 2/5
11. art bombs 2/5 Karina. Karina 1/5.

12. transport attacks 2/5 BB Jackson. counter bombardment failed. Transport destroyed. Jackson 1/5
13. transport attacks 2/5 BB Tipperary. counter bombardment hits. Transport destroyed. Tipperary 2/5
14. transports attack 2/5 BB Tipperary. Transport destroyed. Tipperary 2/5.
15. transports attack 2/5 BB Tipperary. Transport destroyed. Tipperary 2/5.
16. transports attack 2/5 BB Tipperary. Transport destroyed. Tipperary 2/5.
17. Transport attacks 2/5 BB Tipperary. Tipperary sunk. Transport promotes to 3/5
18. Transport attacks 1/5 BB Karina. Transport destroyed. Karina 1/5.
19. Transport attacks 1/5 BB Karina. Karina sunk. Transport 1/4.
20. Transport attacks 1/5 BB Jackson. Jackson sunk. Transport 1/4.

watergrogged totals:
9 bombardments, 5 hits totalling 6 hp. 10 attacks. 1 DD and 6 transports lost. Lego lost 3 BB.



21. Marine attacks Quanto Mechanico. 2/4 BB sunk. Bomber destroyed. Quanto Mechanico taken.

22. Marine captures explorer (1st sappers) at Quanto Mechanico 3.
23. Marine captures explorer (2nd sappers) at Quanto Mechanico 33.
24. Marine captures 3 workers (Ann was one of them, I think) at Quanto Mechanico 1.

25. Quanto Mechanico abandoned. We lost 2 transports (3/5 and 1/4).

26. New city created "Quanto 6"

27. Tank captures Nou Camp.

28. Tank captures Sandonorico

29. Tank captures Karina. (forbidden palace destroyed?)

30. Tank captures Oasis.

31. Abandoned Oasis.

32. New city built: Oasis 8.

33. Tank captures Farmerville.

34. Tank captures Forkmouth.

35. Farmerville abandoned.

36. New city built, "Farmer 8".

37. Tank captures Red Bricks. We control the Sistine Chapel.

38. Tank captures Tarzania.

39. Red Bricks abandoned.

40. New city built, "Red Bricks 8"

41. Tank captures Legopolis. Fighter destroyed. Smith's Trading company controlled. Bach's Cathedral controlled.



The (first) battle for Fort Stanwix
42. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
43. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
44. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank killed. Inf 1/4.
45. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank retreats (1/4), inf 4/4.
46. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed, inf 1/4.
47. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank retreats (1/4). Inf 4/4.
48. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes to 2/5.
49. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf 4/4.
50. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed, tank 3/4.
51. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
52. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf 2/4.
53. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank retreats (1/4). Inf 2/4.
54. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes to 4/5.
55. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
56. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Tank retreats (1/4). Inf 2/4.
57. Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 2/4.

Fort Stanwix total:
16 Tank attacks. 10 succesful defensive bombardments. 6 infs killed. 6 tanks killed.



58. MI captures settler at Leopolis 22.
59. Marine captures 3 workers at Legopolis 3
60. Marine captures 3 workers at Dye Fields 47
61. Marine captures 3 workers at Dye Fields 41
62. 3/4 Marine captures worker at Ahhmyfoot 7.

63. Forkmouth abandoned.

64. Sandonorico abandoned.

65. Tarzania abandoned.

66. Karina abandoned.


Grand total:
9 bombardments, 5 hits totalling 6 hp. 27 attacks. 4 retreats. 10 successfull defensive bombardments.
We lost 1 DD, 8 TR & 6 T.
Lego lost 4 BB, 1 sub, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 2 explorers, 13 workers, 1 settler, 9 cities.

The screenshots to accompany that (these will end up in public, but won't be released until after VoX played its turn. Not that we think Vox is going to harm us, but they point out to ND that with only rushing 1 transport, they can take 8 cities (as they are undefended). We'd rather not have ND claiming all that gold, there should be something like 1000 g in those 8 cities.










In short, this is what happened:
We didn't trust the Fort Stanwix situation, and feared the GoW stack was too badly damaged to take the city. Without that, both our teams would have a bit of a problem. So, we decided to steal Lego's map (you will of course get that once you receive the save, and we would appreciate some compensation for it too. A free donation, if you wish ). It became clear that we could move through Lego's territory, and capture Legopolis. From there, we could attack Stanwix from behind, thus making it easier for GoW to break through.

Everything we could transport was moved, and just as well too. If we hadn't done that, you wouldn't have a chance of destroying Stanwix, meaning the invasion would have been over for GoW, and you would be forced to retreat, and regroup. Even now, it will be close, but we think we (well, Aeson to be precise) have come up with a relatively bad-RNG-proof recipe, which should make sure you take the city. It is going to cost you everything you've got at Stanwix 9, but the gains will be enormous.

From Lego's battle report, we can see that you will have a possibility to chain 8 cavs to Lego. Great! together with the 5 settlers and a couple of tanks, this means you are able to capture every city on Legoland, without fights, and not including Abilene (obviously), Jackson, Dye fields, and possibly Castlea. All the rest is open, and we count on you to take these cities, and either abandon them after selling everything, or razing them for slaves. (warning: not all cities can be razed, some you have to capture or you can't reach the next one)

Further, I can imagine you would be more interested in attacking Dye fields, but Jackson is more important to us. In case you decide to attack a defended city, please attack Jackson. It would also create a passage to Castlea, but most importantly, it contains Magellan's. Lego is at this moment in reach of our chaining fleet, but if Magellan would be destroyed, we would be safe. Dye fields can come later, next turn or the one after that this war should end anyway.

If you don't want to attack any city, so be it. You will capture 29 artillery in Stanwix (if you take it, of course), and I can imagine that you want to protect those first. You could of course put them on a transport, to be unloaded again next turn, but protecting them at Stanwix 9 also makes sense... whatever you think's best.

In order for all this to succeed, we've given you 5 cities. These include Legopolis, and the 4 cities we built to let our tanks reach Stanwix. Keep them while you can use them, but one thing is immensely important: abandon them once you used them! We can't risk Lego (re)capturing any of these cities, especially Legopolis would be a great loss. Too bad for the 2 wonders that are about to be destroyed, but nothing to be done about that. We just can't risk it, Lego is playing far too well, and I'm sure they would like Legopolis more than Abilene... with the proper motivation, they will recapture it. So abandon it, but only after your troops have moved trhough, of course.

The rest of the cities were already abandoned, to avoid any complaints about teleportation (Legopolis is going to teleport 1 tank to EotS, nothing that can stop that).

In case, due to a string of bad luck, you can't take Stanwix, just reinforce your position with whatever troops you can miss (if you wait with chaining to the last minute, you could e.g. bring some fresh infs instead of cavs), and we'll do our best to help you next turn to be sure you too can settle a city on Legoland. Lego has got a major problem with the damage we did already, it would be nice that you could finish the job, and reduce them to a 2-city empire (Dye fields and Abilen), or a 4-city empire (Abilene, Dye, Jackson, Castlea), but otherwise, they are destroyed as well. With the doughnut, we can make sure we pick the best targets next turn, and each take a couple of cities. All of them are accessible, they can't defend everything.

We have left all our slaves, explorers, and tanks in the open (tanks we couldn't help), to try to draw Lego forces out of their fortress. Whether you do that with your slaves or not is up to you. Part of the reason for us was that it was impossible to bring them to safety anyway.

Finally, some diplomacy things:
we lost our rubber resource. And instead of risking Lego taking theirs back (all it required was a recaptured slave), we pillaged the source. Please send us rubber!

Also, this war has gone a lot faster than expected, and the damage done this turn is something we could only have dreamt of. We're seriously lacking in communication of what is going to happen next. Of course, we need some way of dividing the gains here... We hope that once your turn is done (and hopefully equally destructive as ours has been), we can make some time, and discuss... it was never clear if this thing even was going to succeed, so not much has been said about the aftermath of the war. This has changed dramatically over a couple of days. We need to catch up. Any ideas and thoughts: please let them be heared!

-------

What is following are some posts from Aeson, who has tested the best way to deal with the stack. Just using the first unit is not going to work, you will probably lose. These rules should create the advantage for you. It is all very close, if we had one ship less to transport tanks to Stanwix, you would not have broken through for sure!

We're assuming that defensive auto-bombard can only occur once per game round. As GS is Player 1 the bombards already taken from Lego's Arts should not be available to auto-bombard against a second civ before Lego's turn. It could be that you will encounter 29 defensive bombardments, instead of 13, which will lower the odds considerably. We do not know how this happens in MP.

If any of this is not clear (it was cut out of a discussion of a couple of pages, so it might be out of context), please do not hesitate to ask us. This is too important for the both of us, we can't have something silly like miscommunication mess things up now.

Originally posted by Aeson
Defensive bombardment can be somewhat nullified by attacking with units which have less attack power. Losing an Infantry HP is going to hurt much less than losing a Tank HP. Also defensive bombardment can't do anything against a 1 HP unit. GoW should try to take all defensive bombardments possible with their Infantry I think.

As DeepO says, best targets for the Infantry are the Elites. I'd include all Tanks too. A 2 HP Infantry should lose to the Tank, but Lego doesn't get a promotion generally unless the next unit that attacks the Tank loses too. So a 2 HP Infantry can almost be viewed as bombardment if the damaged units are finished off with Marines or Tanks.

Tanks have Blitz, so they should be saved for 1 and 2 HP Infantry, which they can often kill 2 of even at low HPs themselves.

I think using some basic rules for when to attack with what, GoW can still have better than even odds to take the city. I just ran through a scenario twice with preserve random seed off. Once with 26 Artillery, once with 17. As I'm using C3C the Artillery target the units first.

The scenario is using very close to the same number of units (no 1/4 units, just Conscripts instead of 2/X or 1/X HP units, Regulars instead of 3/X HP units, Veterans instead of 4/5 HP units. Lego benefits from this because they get better promotion odds, which then count towards later battles, while GoW's promotions don't help at all except with the Tanks.

The first time I got through with 12 Marines, 9 Infantry, and 1 Tank left available to attack. Second time I got through with 8 Marines, 1 Infantry left available to attack.

I'll run it some more with 17 bombardments.

Originally posted by Aeson
I tried again, using the Marines at the end. 4 Marines left with movement.

I think the optimal approach is to bombard the 4/4 Infantry away. Attack the 4/5 Infantry with 2/4 Infantry to soak up defensive bombardments. Then attack the 4/4 Tanks once each with a 2/4 Infantry, then bombard them if they didn't get hit. This is to avoid a promotion. Stay with the same strategy on the 3/4 Infantry. If at any point an Elite Tank is showing, attack it with 2/4 Infantry.

Stop using 2/4 Infantry once the defensive bombardment has been gotten through. I'm using 11, so lets hope that's how it works. Start using the 4/4 Marines. This should get through most of the rest of the units. Use the Tanks to clean up low HP Inf and Tanks. Use what's left of the 2/4 Infantry to deal with the Cavalry.

So far in 4 runs I've gotten through each time even with Lego getting 5-10 HPs from promotions they won't get. I'm thinking the odds on this are pretty good given the number of attackers remaining even with Lego's extra HPs.

---------------------

Did we leave anything out? These reports have the tendency of growing each time you read them... so let me know if we missed something.

Good luck,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Okay, a request. We're not going to post in those threads that reach 500 posts, but could they please stay open?

Trip, nye, could you reopen the first part of this turnthread for me, please?

The reason is that once a thread has been closed, you can't quote or edit them. I want to copy pieces of it, especially including the screenshots... I hate to have to find all these links again, when I know they are simply there, ready to be reused.

thanks,
DeepO

[Cort Haus]

We could add that we are making the following assumption :

Defensive auto-bombard can only occur once per game round. As GS is Player 1 the bombards already taken from Lego's Arts should not be available to auto-bombard against a second civ before Lego's turn.

Also, the sentence

"You could of course put them on a transport, to be unloaded again next turn, but protecting them at Stanwix 9 also makes sense... that is up to you entirely, we'd like everything."

looks like a few words have fallen off the end - was it intended to read something like ... "we'd like everything in XXX"?

[DeepO]

no, it was more meant as "do whatever you like, we don't care"

It's very hard to let this sound as suggestions, as advice, as just a helpful hand without actually telling them what they have to do.

I'll add the defensive comment...

DeepO

[DeepO]

okay, bombardment assumption included.

As to the other sentence, perhaps best to just make it "whatever you think's best".

DeepO

[DeepO]

edited that as well.

Anything else?

DeepO