Vox wants to make a deal for democracy

[asleepathewheel]

yeah, I'm not sure what we should do.

The main question is when will lego learn physics. If they gain it before Vox gets demo, then we could trade it. otherwise we would be giving lego a what, 20% discount on it?

I suppose we could be honest with them, that we would be willing to trade them physics once lego has it due to the tech depreciation.

Maybe something like: (my internal comments are in () not communicated to vox)

Dear Vox

We would love to make a deal with you, but unfortunately it seems that every tech we get either through our own research or through trade, you gain through your own means either the same turn or shortly thereafter. (subtly alluding to Lego's only giving them techs that we already have). And we are not sure that we could give you enough gold and fur to make a trade worthwhile to you. (trying to avoid saying we are running 100% science, I don't know how to tiptoe areound the subject better) We might be able to offer you a tech in a few turns depending on the geopolitical environment, but that is unclear at this point.


Alternatively, we could add: To put it bluntly, we feel we are in a tech race with Bob and Lego and fear that trading some techs that we will have in 8 turns will depreciate the costs significantly. Fortunately or unfortunately, the tech trailblazers have to bear a much higher cost when making scientific breakthroughs. But I don't need to tell you how this works, we are all pros here. (well, I'm an amateur but I'm told what to say ) So you see, we're in a bit of a dilemma.


alternatively, we could respond by saying that we will talk in a few turns (before the discovery) in the meanwhile seeing what lego/nd has discovered, then make an offer. Surely lego will have physics in 8 turns, they would fall far behind otherwise....


I just don't know what to do. I'm a big softie and feel bad telling these guys its straight off. I know its probably not in our interests to make a deal.

[Cort Haus]

I liked the first approach, :

"We would love to make a deal with you, but unfortunately it seems that every tech we get either through our own research or through trade, you gain through your own means either the same turn or shortly thereafter."

perhaps adding something like :

"In truth, the benefits of Democracy are relatively marginal, compared to a mandatory tech. Outlaying gold for it would carry a high opportunity cost, and Democracy is an expensive item. We could offer you Physics, but not until certain key parties have already researched it. We also have luxuries, as suggested before."

[vmxa1]

I like to be as straight as we can. They are not stupid and understand it as well, but it may not hurt to spell it out.

We want to give them Phy for Dem, but the timing is key. If that can be be done just before Lego get Phy, it is not a big deal.
I doubt we can do it with an NDA of say 5 turns??

[Cort Haus]

We can't use Democracy anyway unless we've got coal, otherwise it's completely useless. So perhaps we say to Vox that we have to wait until Steam Power before we know whether we want it.

[asleepathewheel]

steam power, good point.


but we don't want them to know how fast we are actually moving, do we

I don't know what we should do.

what does democracy actually do for us? increase worker speed. Great, but like you said, no coal=no point. less corruption-we have few cities and an fp, would it effect us at all?

Maybe we should just send them a note at dem minus 2 turns or something, or when lego gets physics.

hmm. we can ponder what to do for another day I guess then get back to him, at least with a preliminary note.

At the very least, by not committing ourselves to anything, lego doesn't know what we are up to this might have been a giant fishing expedition by them.

[vmxa1]

There is always that possiblity. We surely cannot use Demo for a while as even a Rel civ. We can't afford a lost turn. I forget does a Rel civ have any anarchy in PTW? I almost never play a Rel civ and when I do I still only switch once.

[Cort Haus]

We never agreed to trade asap with Vox for this tech, so we are under no obligation.

How about this : say that we don't know what this 'Democracy' thing is, and let them try and sell it to us. That'd be fun, and would give a small civ something to do

[Arrian]

Low priority. If they want to make an offer, fine. But I don't see much value in the tech for us, so I wouldn't want us paying much for it.

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

Are there any problems with me sending this:


We would love to make a deal with you, but unfortunately it seems that every tech we get either through our own research or through trade, you gain through your own means either the same turn or shortly thereafter.
In truth, the benefits of Democracy are relatively marginal, compared to a mandatory tech. Outlaying gold for it would carry a high opportunity cost, and Democracy is an expensive item. We could offer you Physics, but not until certain key parties have already researched it. We also have luxuries, as suggested before.

[Arrian]

Fine by me.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

[asleepathewheel]

ok, I'm going to send it.

[asleepathewheel]

Vox has me confused.

apparently they might be willing to send us Democracy anyway, we would send them physics when we were able + a later option for a luxury. are these guys just trying to be a part of the game again, or what? I don't understand what's going on.

[Cort Haus]

I dunno where Vox stand either. What are the chances of finding out? Maybe RP could help us here. They and Vox want to be friends, I think we should copy Arn in on this, somehow.

Vulture, you said you might be able to do some RP diplo. Do you fancy this one? If not, no worries.

Maybe Lego are trying to feed us Demo to hold us up one turn on research and wonders. We probably wouldn't use it till after any IA wonders we could get were in the bag.

It's a lot of work for Vox, though, to hold GS up for one turn, so not very credible. Maybe Vox are more independent than we thought - yet Lego fed them tech. Could that be for a UN vote? Also, GoW supply Vox with Wine - perhaps that was for PP - or maybe GoW are trying to buy Vox's vote too. I wonder whether we should be be thinking about this. People are callng Vox & RP 'Kingmaker Civs'. Not without reason, perhaps.

[vmxa1]

I can't image that they would expect us to switch to Demo in the middle of the ToE race.