Beginnings

[Arrian]

We're gonna need a lot of pikemen.

I think we may also wish to ponder the usefulness of Med Inf vis-a-vis Knights. Same attack value, 4/7th the cost. They are basically good cheap counterattackers (from which Riders/Ansars can retreat). Bombard with cats, hit with Meds, finish with Knights. The Meds will be good for chewing through pikes protecting invasion stacks.

Can someone with access to the save have a look at the shields/turn of each of our major cities and figure out how many turns it takes each of those cities to build 1) pikemen, 2) med infs, and 3) knights?

I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be best to pretty much stop building Knights, at least for the time being.

We also need to consider whether or not we ought to cut our own iron so we can build WCs/Horsies for upgrade. If we do want to do that, we'd better have a good plan for exactly how long it will remain cut, and synchronize production (probably with the use of some rushing and some prebuilds) such that once the iron is cut, a bunch of cities switch to WCs/Horsies. Then, via shortrushing and whatnot, have them all complete within a turn or two of each other, and have the iron hooked back up the following turn. That would require some serious planning. Incidentally, we could also consider the use of warriors -> med inf upgrades. Expensive, but we could get a lot of med infs that way.

Also, if perchance we get another leader (not that it's much of a probability. AFAIK, we don't even have any elite units over on Bob, excepting 1 pikeman), I think Leo's becomes a huge priority. Of course we'd rather have a palace move, but we've gotta be able to win the war in order to protect that, and winning the war is very much in doubt. With Leo's, though, using iron cutting/upgrading could be a war-winner.

Oh, yeah, research... We should inquire as to the possibility of getting Invention from Vox or Lego. If we can't, we should wait until it's gone around and then crank our research up to get it ASAP.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

I agree with Arrian's assessment re: Pikes especially, and Med Infs as cheap attackers.

We've got the biggest economy on the planet, and even if our ally doesn't have much to contribute, the fact is, we can keep pace with our enemies, production-wise (given that we entered the war with a bigger military, especially).

So let's focus on the fundamentals. Pikes for defense and a lot of them. Med Infs to act as shock troops and weaken/drive off the enemy fast movers, with what knights we have sent in to finish off the weakened and retreated enemy horse troops.

As to winning the war....it is already won. We have a foot hold on their continent. The only question that remains is how much can we extend/expand that foothold. If we play our cards right, we can expand it quite a lot!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

We should, however, begin making serious plans to see to the eventual elimination of one of the two civs we face. It does us no good to attack them both in concert. They'll come to us in that regard, so our focus should be on forming an impenatrable defense against the best they can collectively throw at us, while actively plotting one civ's demise (whichever one it's easiest to hit in force, with a combination of landed troops via our navy, and our growing collection of assets on Bob. Once we secure the beach head, the next "load" of troops can be used in an "Inchon" type landing to begin our attack, but...that's a ways down the road. First, we build up the beach head and secure our foothold, then rescue what cities we can of our allies, then hit hard.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Regarding our economy... I think some of the data might be a tad misleading, in that we have a bunch of totally corrupt cities (and AFAIK, the econ data on F11 doesn't take corruption/waste into account) in North Stormia and on Bob. We outproduce either one of our opponents, but without much RP production capacity, I believe that ND+GoW together can match or exceed us.

Having said that, it doesn't change our basic approach: fundamentals. Pikes & Med Infs for now. Lots of them.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

And Workers... if NM1 is to be the focal point of a radial defense, our military road network needs to be superb.

[Arrian]

Yeah, we need 6 workers over on Bob... at least.

I think we can safely stop building galleys, btw.

One of the reasons I want a bunch more pikes is for worker protection. It's hard to cover your cities, your workers, and strategic terrain (like Toledo 2) all at once when facing 3-move opponents.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

The only problem I have with the plan as outlined above is that it makes the South of what we currently hold on Bob as something to trap forces in (and defend while doing it), while we attack up North.... I would rather see a similar plan for the other side, and focus on either getting the ND - former RP cities back, or taking back the South first, and defend that. We need to get some territory back for RP, so they can be of a bigger help to us, we can't face 2 GA opponents alone (well, we can probably defend against them, but not take them out comfortably).

Actually, perhaps it's best to go after ND, while defending from returning riders. If we can take control of Zara, and keep it this time, we should make it a lot easier to have a forward beachhead into ND's territory. If everyone suspects we go after the South next, we might be able to surprise them again... and for the moment, ND and GoW homecountry is not so well defended, given their strength compared to RP. We still haven't lost a lot of troops yet, while the rest has been hurting.

The only real disadvantage I see to this tactic is that right now, most of the riders are damaged. By leaving them alone for a couple of turns, they are given the opportunity to heal. Which makes them harder to kill, of course.

DeepO

[Theseus]

DeepO, that is it exactly, though... imagine, when we are ready to counter-attack, driving straight across to Bob's west coast, and then re-taking the south. F*cking glorious, that's what that is.

[Velociryx]

Yes...we absolutely need to get our ally back into this fight, and quickly! Even with all our production advantages, the fact is, we've got two civs in their GA against us, every city we take back from the bad guys and give to our ally, is one less GA city for the enemy. That needs to happen, despite the difficulty it may present (fortunately for us, they haven't started to wholesale burn them down....yet).

If we can easily reach wounded troops, then by all means, we should gun for them, but this should not be a priority IF it means exposing our own forces for dangerous periods of time.

The wounded will heal if left alone, yes, but the time they spend doing that = time for us to build more pikes and med infs, such that when they strike again, we're even stronger.

Their GA's will end, and when they do, it will rob them of a significant portion of the production they're seeing right now. All we gotta do is weather that storm and gain steady ground for our ally to keep them in the game and make them a viable partner (even if they can do little more than hold the line while we do the heavy lifting, hey....it's that much!).

Three things we need to do then are:
1) Get our ally back into the game as a serious junior partner.
2) Defend what's ours and what's his (our ally)
3) HURT our enemy. Let them come to us for now (once we have staked out a perimeter), and when he comes, nail them to the friggin' wall. ONE SINGLE well-won battle can irreparably damage their morale and will to fight, so let's hand them their arses.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

We need to get a serious move on building up our perimeter, guys. They can strike fast and hard.

Pikes, pikes, pikes. We need to get them up on the highground to force ND/GoW to either attack at odds that favor us, or stay out on the flats.

I haven't really reviewed it, but I'm sure NYE's plan is solid. But implementing it is easier said than done. We need to get moving on that ASAP. Let's get a few pikes out on the key hills/mountains and get 'em fortified. Then let's get the workers & more pikes over to Bob.

Production should be pikes/med infs. In cities that produce less than 14 shields/turn, I'd say pikes. More than that (which is what, 2-3 cities?), med infs.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Amen, Arrian! Let's swamp them with Pikes.....same defense, much cheaper than their troops....we'll defend them to death for the moment, and then start getting evil....

-=Vel=-

[zeit]

We can't just defend right now- time doesn't work for us, which is not like things were in the Voxian war- we can't just turtle and wait for them- when they'll come they'll be more powerful than we are.

GoW is an easy nut to crack, especiall now that their troops are behind enemy lines... we'll have to deal with them before we move towards ND. 8-9 healthy riders on our flank is not something I'm too fond of, and dealing with those troops they have in a manner that leaves them with no gains is a great way to leave them out of the game, at least partially.

As much as I would love to turtle in and let them come to us, we can't just do that, for two main reasons:
1) The enemy probably has a production advantage, and powerful UUs.
2)Gunpowder is coming soon- we'll have no real gains after that until Chivalry comes along- Z and Co. should be in our hands by then (the obvious line of defense).

So, we should plan for either a move against ND, with GoW's riders kept in bay, or (as I prefer) a pincer movement against the south, regrouping, and a thrust at Z.

[asleepathewheel]

Frankly, defense is what screwed us in the first place. We had a tremendous uncrackable defense in Toledo, and what happened? GoW just waltzed by and took everything in the soft southern RP underbelly. Must control the riders first and hope that Pamplona doesn't fall.

Must strike GoW homeland soon to prevent reinforcement riders.

[Velociryx]

I agree that we can't "just" defend, but we're in no position, from what I gather, to launch a general offensive right now....as I understand it, we lacked sufficient manpower to prevent several allied cities from falling into enemy hands recently. Sounds to me like we've got our hands rightfully full just maintaining the status quo and keeping our ally in the game.

To defend those cities after we retake them, we need pikes....LOTS of pikes.

I'd dearly love it if we had sufficient forces to retake (and hold) all the cities lost by our ally AND hand someone their butt in the next 3-5 turns, but in the reading I've done, I don't see much evidence of that.

This is not going to be a short war, IMO. It's going to be a long, nasty one, and to that end, we gotta have a viable ally, which means we gotta play heavy D for the time being and focus on getting some cities back....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, Asleep hit the nail right on the head.

STATIC, single-point defense does not work any more, as has been made painfully clear.

The nature of the game has changed with 3-move attackers against us.

We have to defend first....absolutely a must, or we don't have a viable ally.

But we cannot rely on static single point defense, because the 3-move troops can get around that.

So we need to be strong everywhere to stand up to their fast movers wherever they mght be, and WHEN they commit to an attack somewhere, we need to meet them with our own fast moving attack force placed so that it can arrive on-scene the turn after they make the attack and ravage them.

-=Vel=-