RP, Our Vassals

[vulture]

What value is there in suggesting to ND and GoW that RP are much more willing to let us have land on Bob in return for help (that being their only option), so which side would they prefer us on

Not a serious suggestion. I doubt they'd take kindly to it, and would just agree to let us have land with the intention of taking it off us later.

[Dominae]

I just want to mention a point that was brought up in the chat then discarded:

Let's say we assist RP, and let's say ND and GoW do not backstab each other and ally semi-permanently to get us and RP off the continent. We're basically going to have a long 2v2 war: we want RP to survive so we will not back out, and ND and GoW want to split Bob, so they're not going to back out.

So, we're going up against two civs with Knight-level UUs, on their home continent, and just when they're entering their GA. Sounds to me like we're going to lose that war. All the while Lego watches the fireworks.

I'm not saying helping RP is a bad idea. We definitely do not want ND and GoW to steamroll them. But there are other options which we're not considering too carefully: 1) we take RP's advice and counter-attack either ND or GoW's undefended settlements, 2) we convince GoW to backtab ND.

The second option, if it works, is the best-case scenario. We would then have a vassal in RP (since we rescued them from certain doom), a weakened ND and GoW, and time left over for Lego.

What would it take to convince GoW that ND is the perfect target? From the chat it sounds like they're halfway there already...


Dominae

[Arrian]

we convince GoW to backtab ND

That's worth a try, Dominae.

we take RP's advice and counter-attack either ND or GoW's undefended settlements

If we are going to actively assist RP (in exchange for their offer of vassalage), I want to land near ND's core and beeline straight at it. None of this RP gifting us cities and us offloading there. No, RP deals with the invading units as best they can, whilst we invade up north.

That's IF we decide to help RP. I'm still quite uncomfortable about that.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Arrian, my first instinct was to land near ND's core too. The problem is that the water is wider there, and it would take a while to get an adequate force to the target area. If GoW and ND can rip the heart out of RP while we're doing that, we won't have a combat-effective ally. On the other hand, it does have the advantage that GoW and ND are more likely to expend more of their forces before we get involved in the fight, which could work in our favor - especially if GoW honors its NAP with us so we're just fighting ND one on one.

[Arrian]

On the other hand, it does have the advantage that GoW and ND are more likely to expend more of their forces before we get involved in the fight, which could work in our favor

Bingo. RP bleeds ND & GoW, while taking a beating. Meanwhile, we put ourselves in position to strike right at ND's core. I know the water's wider there. But the other option involves a LOT more overland fighting. I'll take the water.

If we're gonna do this, that's how I want it done.

Do you really think we should do it, though? There remains the possibility of us facing ND & GoW in their GAs with RP unable or unwilling to give us much support.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

right, finally reached the end, so that I can comment. It took about 4 hours because of other duties...

1. I'm not going to vote in this one. Both ways work. Helping RP will probably be more fun, gives more rewards, but holds greater risk as well (e.g. riders on Stormia). Further, I personally don't like a few of RP's members, and I don't trust them at all (but don't particularly trust ND or GoW either)

2. But the GoW ND chat was a disaster... I wished Vondrack hadn't showed up so fast (BTW, I also have a log of 'our' channel, if anyone is interested), so that I could have had 10 more minutes of hammering. But even then, they are kind of stalling us, keeping us off Bob, and hoping their stacks will win.

3. We are the deciding power. Even in their GAs, we can outproduce them, and start from a larger army (although part of that needs to stay here, for homeland defense). But, if we help RP, we must stop all we can, and start building up our military big time, cfr the Vox war. Either we go completely for it, or we don't there is no middle ground (which there would be if we just took some cities from RP, and stayed here: we could still research, we could still build harbors and aquaducts.)

4. All-or-nothing part II: ND was very explicit in saying that they either destroyed RP, or died trying. These guys are no roleplayers, they have no interest in becoming a second rate power. If we attack them, we must prepare to keep on fighting until they are gone. There won't be any 'cripple them and leave' option, there won't be any peace talks. So don't make the decision lightly!

5. GoW NAP: I'm not sure that if the deal leaks out, it won't bind us anymore. I'm sure they will be pissed if we accept Bilbao as a gift, it does go against the spirit of the deal, no matter what. Before we do that (if we do it, of course), we need to give GoW one more chance, like: you have 20h to decide to grant our wishes, if not we see no other option to help RP. You can be sure we're not going to attack you first, but we will defend ourselves, and we will do our best to destroy ND. Choose sides if you want

6. Possible hidden agenda of RP: there is one possibility I see. Remember the talk when Vox came onto Bob? remember the warnings of Lego? If we get a foothold on Bob (even given by RP), and do our best to cross other teams in the mean time, we could face a 3-way invasion. All ND and GoW really want is to fight. If RP gives them a couple of cities, and make us provoking them, they can very well trigger some age old MPP asking for our destruction.
It's a remote possibillity, but the only one I see.

7. Spoils of war: I have but one demand: we need, at all times, to have more land then RP on Bob. And without our own continent into the equation. If they want us in, they can start by giving us 2-3 cities, including lux cities. They must accept our help in planning, they must disclose their screenshots. And the first thing they need to start to do is building warriors as hell, upgrading them later with our money. (might even get Lego in on this)

8. Lego: This is tricky. I thought Stormia and Bob was going to be enough for us for domination. Aeson, is this new count based on the actual number of tiles, and not on the projected ones for the given map size and conditions? In other words, can we expect to have some minor island somewhere out there, or is all we can't see just plain ocean?
Lego won't like it when we take Bob, and split it between us and RP, that's for sure. We still have a running deal for Astro - banking, which we agreed to trade once discovered. Further, they have Vox as a 40-turn tech ally (although RP will make a better vasal for sure). They certainly might intervene, especially if ND invites them (which is for the moment the only reason they want to stay off Bob, it seems)

9. No matter what we do, we are screwing one side. We asked about information, we have gotten that from both sides, probably more then they want to give out. If we now attack RP, they will scream hell, as they have given tactical information of their troops. The same will happen with GoW (ND is not so much a problem, they have been very secretive)

10. Last wildcard: Vox. They are relatively safe on Legos minor, but could very well become a power in this war. What if we invite them to Bob? RP can give Bilbao to them (which is far from ideal, but GoW will not foolishly attack them before checking Vox has no MPPs in place with us or Lego). They can go visit the great library perhaps, there are a couple of options (engineering to RP too, of course). A lot depends on how exactly the relation was between RP and Vox during their war, I fully expect that RP did not keep to its promises vs. them, but still, there might be some way we can manipulate Vox into helping out. I still consider them owing us something, we can collect debts...

11. I'm gone... If all goes well, I have 15 minutes to check in about an hour or so, after that don't expect me back before Sunday morning. But as I won't vote in this, it doesn't matter much (It's a damn pity to have to leave now things are getting so interesting, though)

DeepO

[vulture]

Forgot to mention - I noticed that RP didn't seem to understand the mechanism of the Voxodus. They seemed to be under the impression that there was a large fleet of galleys full of Vox troops and settlers floating past GoW's northern shore.

In response to DeepO: RP did give us information about their troop dispositions, without knowing whether we were going to help them or not. How reliable is that information. We've been talking about 'back channel' diplomacy, and they could easily be doing the same here. Try and lure GoW and ND to attack them where they can do the most damage to the invading stacks. If we don't pass on the info - well, there was no harm in trying.

Can't believe that GoW are actually turning away from Toledo to attack Bilbao, if they are really committed to a war against RP. It doesn't make any kind of sense (unless they really are going to attack ND). Any bets that half the units in that large pike stack RP had in their screenshot were workers and warriors?

[Arrian]

I agree with DeepO re: if we do this, we're in a fight to the death with ND.

I DO NOT think we should say "you have 20 turns to agree to our demands or we're helping RP." There are two huge problems with that approach: 1) we're bullying them, and they may just decide to promise us what we want for now, and attack us to get it back once RP is done; and 2) if they say no, we've telegraphed our intention to attack ND.

No, if we intervene on RPs side in this, I want our landing to be a surprise (hell, if we land where I want there is even an outside chance it could go undetected for a turn (doubtful, but possible).

I think we should discuss our concerns one more time with GoW/ND and if we don't get what we want, we leave the discussion with no committments made. They may figure that we will just huddle up and go builder.

If we do jump in against ND, we should make it clear to GoW that we will respect our NAP, but they have no RoP with us. Trespassing will be considered a violation of the NAP.

-Arrian

Edit: hours, not turns. I knew what you meant, DeepO

[DeepO]

The reason why GoW is going for Bilbao is that they don't feel very sure of their own force. Those 14 riders represent a considerable investment in upgrading, they are not going to risk half their force on an attack on pikes on a mountain (even if, the same as Vox when standing next to Arashi, that would most likely be the best option for them in the long term).

They said in chat that, depending the situation, they either go for it, or will try to lure them into the open. With RP doing exactly the same, it could very well take a while before the first 'real' battle occurs. Of course, the faster GoW has a victory with a rider, the faster their GA starts.

RP did give troop information, but I doubt that they expect us to turn that information to GoW. We're honorable, remember? We shouldn't be doing that, they can safely assume we won't...

As to the Voxodus: I saw a similar comment from GoW. My guess is that only us, Lego and Vox know the exact plan. We haven't told anyone, Lego has no point in doing so, and Vox? Why would they even chat with others

DeepO

[DeepO]

cross post... I was talking about 20 hours, not 20 turns. Which would keep the initiative on our side (as it happens in our turn)

However you're right, it would be bullying them

DeepO

[Shiber]

IMHO right now it's very very important that we keep talking with GoW and ND all the time. If all of a sudden there is silence from us then we start to look suspicious to them. Whereas, if we keep talking about being allowed into Bob then hopefully they'd feel like we're relying on this option and aren't making other plans or leaning towards other approaches.

[ManicStarSeed]

good point shiber.
.....


These are the points I want to make to RP...

We shoud communictae with RP and let them know that we are looking for ways that we can help them, but being gifted bilabo in the process does not work for us. It blows our suprise and creates diplomatic problems we are not quite ready to address.

We expect current, undoctored screenshots with exact stack infornmation noted on the map. The sooner teh better.

RP should play this turn, not gifting us any city.

We perfer to suprise ND with flanking attack to their core.

We have no intention of engaging GoW troops as we have a good relationship with them and do not want to fight them directly just yet. Our forces will focus on ND.

We expect RP to trade us luxes the same turn that our forces land on bob.

We will provide tactical input based on the screen shots.

We can not proivide gold as we need it for upgrades and rushes.

We are 3 truns from landing any forces on bob (at best)...

Anything else?

Arnelose (RP) was planning on offering a vassaldom proposal, I havent seen it. I would like to see it before we really reply. They claim it will be in plain english.

I suggest we get together our ides in plain english so that we cann work something out...

Mss

[Theseus]

Yep, we should in fact strongly react to the absurdity of their position...

"Sure, we'll jump into the fray, but what's in it for us? And don;t give me no guff about possible GLs!!"

They know we want a piece of SE Bob... we need to pursue that angle.

[Aeson]

I think we should take the "grand alliance" approach here.

Public announcement "GS to join with RP in defending their Homeland". We give ND 1 turns notice that the Luxury trade is off. Then declare war. No haggling with ND/GoW to get them to beat RP's offer, they couldn't beat it anyways, and certainly aren't willing to come close. We have here a 'you win the game' offer. Maybe it doesn't play out exactly that way, but it's a no risk proposition. We were going to hit RP, then take on GoW and ND. Now at worst we have to deal with them on better terms.

We accept an initial grant of land (Bilbao, Toledo to start) from RP for our help, and to support our forces on the continent. We land by NM, and receive it too. Given the position of our galleys, it saves our stack a full turn. Depending on how GoW has reacted, we either head N to face their Riders, or head W to help against ND. Either way, RP can concentrate all their forces to stopping ND.

[Arrian]

Hmm... but then we faced a forewarned foe (ND), and invading them from RP's lands is gonna be a serious *****.

You don't think we ought to land farther north, and march straight in on ND?

I need to copy & paste the discussion that Theseus, MSS, Asleep & I were having over at our forum on MZO... I think it's a good one (Theseus, if you could, that would be nice ).

-Arrian