RP, Our Vassals

[notyoueither]

The thing is that RP seems to be accepting a position of if we win, they win. That is a powerful thing to pass up on.

I chatted with BigFree briefly, to let him and RP know that things were going well here. It might effect their planning and their handeling of the turn. He asked me specifically if I thought that 'joint' winning was a possible scenario. I said yes, because I have done it myself before.

I may be imagining things, but I see a great deal of potential here.

We can further our position dramatically by picking up a greatful civ who accepts thier place in the game and pledges us their support.

We can heal over some of the wounds of the game on the community. If we and RP can come to such an arrangement, then we will all have grown beyond ourselves and will be better for it, IMHO.

I hope I am not getting too carried away by the moment, the hour (and the beer I started cracking) but think of England and Scotland. After extensive strife and conflict, they were joined and together created the greatest empire ever known on Earth. That is the sort of opportunity that drops in your lap in MP when Civ A identifies with Civ B and pledges thier supprt to see that Civ B wins. Technically, Civ B alone wins. Practically, Civ A thinks of themselves as having won as well.

Just, don't ever pass an act that takes away their kilts.

[asleepathewheel]

I don't know. Part of me thinks RP is telling us what we want to hear. They know we have a weakness and that is we are a bit naive and want to be the good guys. See: Immortal Beloved.

Grima Wormtongue and his band of merry men tricked one civ into attacking us, is this any different? How will we know until its too late.

[vulture]

Sticking with our original plan is a relatively clear-cut thing. We know we fight RP, and expect to have to deal with at least one of ND and GoW to keep our territory. Since we expect trouble, we are prepared for it. The RP plan on the other hand opens up a whole new can of worms. RP having been working for days on ways to get out of this as well as they can, and judging by past experience, things are never what they seem. The opportunities to be screwed over are too great (we have only spent a fraction of the time considering the RP proposal, compared to what they have spent developing plans).

Go with the sure thing, even if the rewards are low, rather than the risky, possibly higher gain venture.

And as I recall, there were good reasons why we didn't want to stage an invasion of ND.

[Harovan]

Well, I think Aesons point is valid, that if they want to beat us, they have to beat us on our own continent. It would not make sense first to invite us to their continent, thus adding to its devastation, and then draw a plot with the other two civs to expel us from it. We wouldn't have lost anything (far from a couple of soon to be obsolete units), and they wouldn't have gained anything.

I don't think they are 100% honest. But with a good hold on Bob and GoW and ND being extinct, we are in such a position of strength, that even an alliance of RP with Lego couldn't endanger us.

And I share the opinion, that I don't like RP one bit (and especially not their leader), but if I had a choice to trust either RP or GoW, it would be RP hands down.

[asleepathewheel]

I fear that we are slouching towards Togas, dealing with both sides to get the better deal. Both groups are going to feel horribly betrayed by us and let us know. People that play both sides tend to get burned, like Togas in this case, and I have some concerns.

[vulture]

I don't think RP are in a plot with the other civs, I think they are in a plot with themselves to get us to do their fighting, and let them end up with more territory on Bob than they have at the moment, with us doing the hard work for them. We don't lose anything except a few units (well, half our army), but RP stand to gain a lot and become a serious power (they already have the potential to be once they finish settling and developing their territory). As long as they don't have to spend too much effort in the war, they come out ahead of everyone else.

And as sleepy says (and I mentioned before) we come off looking very bad in this, and not remotely honourable.

[notyoueither]

Granted, sleepy. However, we are not playing both sides.

The fact is, there would be little debate if GoW and ND accepted simple facts. How they could possibly expect a civ to help them wipe out another and gain no permanent land is simply... ludicrous, and does not bode well at all for that 'alliance'. They trashed it themselves, right there and then today and a few days ago in chat.

RP is more reliable because they are more practical. They recognise realities, it seems. If we can keep them in the position of needing us for long enough, then they will need us forever. At a certain point, if we do not abuse them, they will not look for options any longer.

[notyoueither]

How are we dishonourable by accepting the pledge of a third civ to support us in return for protection?

We are bound by no alliances. We are breaking nothing.

Where is honour compromised? Show me, and I will recant.

[Aeson]

We haven't agreed to anything. The proposal from GoW and ND is rather insulting. We didn't initiate the proposals, just listened to them so far. We aren't bound to agree with them, especially since what they are offering is worthless.

If anything, ND and GoW are making the mistakes Lux, Vox, and seemingly RP have made... being too greedy. ND and GoW want 450 tiles each, while we are stuck with 200... and they want us to help them get it? Each civ is going to go with what is going to help them the most. Right now RP has a choice of us helping, or them being destroyed. As long as we can keep RP thinking they gain more with us than with them, they'll stay with us.

RP is willing to let us onto the continent without a fight... how would getting onto the continent with a fight be a better idea? ND and GoW aren't going to go for it in either case it seems. At least this way we have the potential for a friend, even if it's not guaranteed (and RP ).

[Aeson]

Bah, I keep typing things as fast as I can and each time my post is greeted by NYE saying the same thing right before me...

[Aeson]

Hmmm... do you think GoW will scream loud enough when/if they see us in the way... to say "NAP"? That would break the agreement right?

[asleepathewheel]

I keep waffling.

I just read the three way chat and it pissed me off. Right, we're going to go along with that one. do their dirty work, run some interference and then get nothing for it. hmm. what fools.



What is our exit strategy for this war?

do we go until ND is destroyed?
do we go until both ND and GoW are destroyed?
How do we divide the continent then?
How do we make ourselves secure from RP in the future?
How do we trust someone that already tried to destroy us?

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Aeson
Hmmm... do you think GoW will scream loud enough when/if they see us in the way... to say "NAP"? That would break the agreement right?

ooooh good point. we signed the double super secret NAP. Is it void on publication-I'm not sure, but you could say that would violate its spirit (har har)

[notyoueither]

Yes, that would be a breech of the NAP, and one I don't think they will fall into.

I'm not sure what they will make of our protecting RP lands by accepting cities for our own. I would expect direct attack if they intended malice. Bilbao would be a very good test of that. Not much ventured. Very little lost or gained by either side.

[nbarclay]

I won't rule out the possibility of some kind of elaborate deception, but put yourself in RP's place. You have two civs that are both average in military power relative to you attacking you at once. Both of them have powerful UUs, one (Riders) generally considered to be among the best in the game and the other about as good (although better in SP than in MP). Your UU is several techs away. Both foes are going to be in GAs. You aren't. What do you do?

If you don't mind betting it all to win, waiting to see whether one enemy turns on the other is certainly an option. But that's what you're doing: betting everything. Because if RP's front lines collapse, there would be almost no time for us to save them before Riders and Ansars can gobble up most of the rest of their cities even if we would be willing to get in essentially a one-on-two war to help them.

Or you can ally with the strongest civ in the game. You don't win yourself, but you are on the winning side and, perhaps even more importantly, you make sure the civs that attacked and (in GoW's case) betrayed you don't win.

Yes, there's the risk of the third option: ally with the strongest civ and plan on betraying them later. But we have far more to gain siding with RP than we do trying to gain a mere tiny, almost completely corrupt toehold on Bob attacking RP, and I view the danger of a GoW/ND alliance turning on us as being about as great as the risk of RP doublecrossing us. No option is completely safe, but with higher rewards and not particularly higher risks, I view siding with RP as the better bet.