The Colossus

[notyoueither]

In a word, no.

We are in the midst of a struggle for survival. Our teams' war aims are not going to be easy to force upon Vox. They are going to fight. How much longer do we want that fight to go on by diverting major production to a wonder?

And what if war breaks out on Bob before we are done with Vox? Then we lose a great opportunity, one which may never come again in the entire game.

Finally, I seem to recall a certain nation of the not too distant past who wanted guns and butter when things seemed to be going well in a war. Too late they realised that they lacked the force to win when they had the opportunity to do so. Their opportunities slipped away. They lost all.

No butter! Guns, guns, guns!

Vox delenda est!

[vulture]

While I think we can afford to build the Colossus during the war (making use of the GA - how many turns of that do we have left BTW?), I think we ought to wait until we've at least taken out the rather depleted Arashi/Tempest stack. If we have good luck with the RNG (and 7 turns of GA left) then go for the Colossus. If things go badly and we lose several units, then we probably need a few more turns worth offensive units. SO, holding the middle ground quite firmly, I say we wait the one or two more turns to see what taking out the stack costs us, and re-judge out priorities then.

As for backup - what do we do if Lego get the Colossus, GoW get the GL at about the same time? I know buying monarchy isn't urgent (since we can use the GW or Oracle as a place-holder), but wouldn't we rather save money on Monarchy and wait for Theology and Sistine (given that we are a religious civ after all - 80 shield Cathedrals making 6 content people good...)

BTW which is the priority if we are lucky enough to get another leader in the next few turns - Colossus (so cheap is seems a waste to me), GLib (gets my vote, since it is useful and more expensive, shield wise, than the Colossus, which we may get anyway - or would we lose it to GoW in a cascade) or an army (not needed, and given how close we are to chivalry, probably a waste until we can put knights in it).

[Aeson]

I think we should stick to Horsemen in Hurricane.

[Aeson]

From a 'butter' perspective, I think it would be a good idea to start growing Arashi now. It seems to be out of any danger of being taken, and it can be a rather productive city quickly (4 turn Knights beat 4 turn Med Infs).

We don't have to be building military everywhere at this point as long as we keep EotS, Hurricane, Tornado, Tempest, and Bolderberg on units. Monsoon and OG could both use Temples to get ahold of those Whales so they can grow a bit more.

[Arrian]

Let me say this:

I really like the Colossus, since I think it does really well in the "bang for the buck" category. However, that's my SP view, and since we all agree this game won't last as long as my SP ones (I at least make the mid-industrial age most of the time), its value is somewhat decreased. So I understand not wanting to build it.

However, if we don't, I want my horsemen, damnit! Sire, our glorious armies require more attack troops! Let's go bonk some heads!

-Arrian

[Shiber]

NYE: I totally disagree. This is everything but a fight for survival. Vox are going to lose 7 immortals this turn, and another 5 of their immortals are tied up where they do effectively nothing (except for tying up some of our pikes until we're done with the Arashi/Tempest stack and can move the catapults to fire at the SS stack).

Vulture: IMHO, building the GLib would mean that we'd be getting Chivalry for free, which IMHO would really piss off GoW since we won't be paying them for their tech. It really pisses us off when other teams get opportunistic and abandon previous commitments, we simply can't do the same to other teams - especially since we're aiming for the "trustworthy partner" image.

[notyoueither]

Interesting that we feel the war is won while we still defend in our own territory, and speak of periods of many turns simply to dislodge what Vox has facing us on our land.

When the pendulum swings, then it will be Vox with the large advantages that defending in Civ3 gives. Who knows at this point how much force will be required to rout Vox's armies in the field? We'd best put everything into it until we have destroyed their ability to make war, and they are fleeing north and away from D'ville with the remainder.

In short, we haven't won anything yet, except a respite from the assault. To act as if we have won more would be hubris on our parts.

[Shiber]

I wouldn't say that we're currently exactly on the defense, because Vox isn't quite on the offense (most of their troops are sitting idle, the rest are getting catapulted slowly).
I wouldn't say that this war is won (yes, I agree that it would be a terrible hubris to act as if it is won), but IMHO Vox will be nearly useless and defenseless without iron (and I believe that we can take their iron). Then we can walk over spearmen with MedInf, and bombard our way through the tough spots. It won't be a walk in the park, but IMHO it's not as bad as you describe it.

[Shiber]

Edit: wrong thread.

[notyoueither]

The point is, the more force we employ, the more certain is the outcome, and the sooner the war is over. Then our entire economy can switch back to development while we wait for the dust to kick up on Bob.

10 turns in Hurricane is 10 horsemen. That is significant indeed.

[Shiber]

It's 7 turns.

I know that we might end the war sooner if we keep building units, but building the Colossus would give Lego their GA. They have the Pyramids, they have lots of territory and if we give them a full 20 turns of peaceful GA to spend on infrastructure right now we may never be able to catch up.

[notyoueither]

I would rather win by focusing on what is good for us, than lose by trying to stop something I have no control over.

Lego can have their GA any time they wish to pay GoW for an 'incident' involving a couple of their mercs and an unfortunate GoW warrior.

[Theseus]

Hmmm... I am not so focused on denying Lego.

I like being a warbuilder, and I believe we can grab the Colossus without materially negatively impacting the war effort, with decent fall back builds if we get beaten to the punch.

[notyoueither]

We don't even have a strength advantage yet. Not even so little as 25%. But sure, we can build wonders, launch multiple amphibious invasions of Vox territory, and defend our own territory at the same time. Sounds like a plan.

[nbarclay]

Up through last turn, we've needed troops so urgently that it's been worth squandering gold rushing them, and now we need them so little that we can afford to divert one of our two most productive cities away from troops for seven turns - maybe a lot longer if we just miss the Colossus and have to go for a fallback wonder?

If I were absolutely certain the Inchon landing would succeed, I could support switching to the Colossus now. But what if Vox has troops parked on the hill when we get there? if Inchon fails and we don't have my proposed iron colony landing or some other heavy east-coast operation against Vox's iron supply as a second means of iron denial, the war could stay close a lot longer than it should and become a lot more expensive than it should.

We'll be using about half our west-coast pikes for Inchon, and we need the other half to make sure we hold Arashi 9. That means EotS and Hurricane have to take care of pike production for an east-coast branch of a pincer move, and I'd really like to have another east-coast galley as well because a six-unit landing has much better odds of living long enough to accomplish something than a four-unit landing does. Give Hurricane three turns or so to do its part in lining that up and then, if we want to, we can start on a wonder. But until then, I think making sure that one way or another, Vox loses its iron supply, needs to take precedence.

Nathan