GoW- Diplomacy comments #2

[Cort Haus]

We are 1 turn from Flight now. So I guess we would start needing the Pre-Reqs now to continue with Motorized Transport. However, we are currently short on cash which means we would need 1 turn of 100% research and another turn of partial research to get extra 1000g (plus we need some upgrades ourselves, mostly our remaining Galleons -> Transports.)

GoW mobilized last turn btw. We should be able to build a sizeable force of bombers for the invasion. I still have my doubts about the time schedule, I have really not done any estimates due to lack of time but I think we'll be barely making the deadline at the best, hopefully our mobilized economy will change that. Right now we only have Infantry and Galleons/Transports up to schedule (or should I say, done), Artillery is behind and Destroyers are looking good. Anyway, I'll try working on a more thorough estimate before I get worried.

I would love to chat one of these days, tell me if and when you guys can.

-MZ

so,

1) We can start sending the pre-reqs for MT.
2) They haven't got the balance of the cash yet.
3) They'd like to delay the invasion slightly.
4) Chat suggested.

So it looks like we'll have to finish of Radio at a sustainable rate and wait for the cash to upgrade.

As we've been considering delaying D-Day ourselves, maybe we should agree to a slight delay. We need them to have a respectable force.

Krill, or anyone - are you around for chat? If not I'll have to try myself though I'm busy with gigs, rehearsals and work this week.

[DeepO]

I'd like to join for chat too... today is going to be a problem, though, but perhaps tomorrow or so. It's busy as hell at work too, but normally I can keep the late evening / night free.

As to delay: we need them to be there, and without money to upgrade, we will need a few more turns if we want to bring MI instead of inf. I personally think getting MI will be worth a couple of turns delay, even if that willl make it nearly sure that Lego has tanks as well. Main point is we need GoW to land at the same turn as us, though. So I think a delay is inevitable.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I'll have to wait for MZ to send me the full transcript (I was on the Java window) but basically ..

1. They have Flight. I said we wanted to hold off that for a bit.

Actually, we want to wait for 2 turns at most. economicaly, I'd prefer it earlier, as Elipolis is perfectly fitted to build an airport, and fighters.

2. They have Amphib in about 4 turns.

Good

3. He's going to send me a spreadsheet to calculate enemy strength on on the turn we passed Lego. I've have the numbers of how many units and how many fortified, and we'll see what the spreadsheet offers.

Only problem with this is that he'll also know perfectly what our strength is.

Oh, and Trip: GoW will get MT in 2 turns. They'll get electronics this one, and MT the one after that. They are the ones who asked for the delay, we wanted to give it to them earlier...

DeepO

[vmxa1]

Yes that was my concern when I read this yesterday. We will be giving them a lot of data and how can we know if what they tell is accurate?

I am not sure what we can do about it, other than under state our unit disposition. I suspect that it would have to be vry close to the truth in order to pass muster.

We may not have any choice but to be forthright.

[Aeson]

I wouldn't worry about GoW knowing our troop numbers.

If they are going to use this info against us, we've already lost. GoW (and their allies) knowing how many units we have isn't going to make any difference. If they are with us, through the Lego invasion, the unit info they get from us will be outdated by the time the invasion is concluded.

[asleepathewheel]

Thats' a great point Aeson. While we dont' have to reveal everything about our civ, in the end if we are going to be backstabbed, the information isn't all that useful. In the face of a 3x1, we lose, regardless of their information, which is outdated quickly.

and we lose in one turn. its a sad thought, but the hand we were dealt isn't defensible. I can see a move where GoW blitzes RP and then hands one of the cities to lego to offload their entire army.

[DeepO]

I agree it's not a big issue... However they can know perfectly what our strength is at time of invasion: in one of the PMs, CH told them that every turn delay means an extra 8 tanks to the party for us.

But if they hadn't figured that out already... they can read the numbers too (their production power in mobilization is 9 or 10 tanks per turn, higher if they are very efficient)

BTW: CH: any chance to see that log? I'm interested in what MZ had to say

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

I didn't have a log as I was on the java window. I haven't rcvd the spreadsheet yet, I'll ask again for it. When is the best time for us to recieve flight, DeepO?

[Cort Haus]

Details of GoW's war opening posted on the log here .

I sent Lego's forces for the last turn - and GoW appear not to have an Intel Agency yet.

How much info on us do we want to give in reply? If we distrust them and hold our cards too close they will see this and may distrust us in return. I've said before that I think we have to bet the ranch on this assault and as DeepO said, GoW have no motive for a BS this early - so I'd favour a fairly open, rather than closed posture towards GoW and our plans & deployments.

[DeepO]

I agree... but let's not give them too detailed info either, you never know.

I think we can give them the screenshot of our attack, the one with all ships after the attack, but with no movement left. However, we need to crop it to keep some info from them: they don't need to know our exact gold situation.

CH, you could send them the updated numbers (careful, the Lego ones were before attacking, so mention this to MZ), as well as one piece of advice: build more marines! Those bombers he doesn't have to build know, are better put into more M and a transport to get them there. You can drop the number of 56 M to them, to get an idea.

Precise troop information: I'm a bit hesitant about that. If they know what's on our transports, they also know what we've got at home. But in the spirit of openess, I think we can't keep it from them. But let's this discuss a bit, before sending anything to them.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Proposed report to GoW. Comments please! CH, maybe better to wait for approval of the team before sending it. I think it's okay, but you never know what I made have missed

Situation scetch before movement:


Battle Report:
(DD1 is the first, but it was moved before the screenshot was made)

DD1 attacks Ir Shark . DD 4/4.
DD2 attacks Ir Southfork. DD 1/4.
DD3 attacks DD Achilles. DD 2/4.
Sub1 attacks DD Poseidon . Sub 2/4.
DD4 attacks DD Argonout. DD 2/4.
Sub2 attacks Sub U-Q2. Sub 1/4.
DD5 attacks DD Athena. DD 2/4.
DD6 attacks Ir Dagger. DD 2/4.
DD7 attacks Ir Sledgehammer. DD 3/4.
DD8 attacks Ir Maul. DD destroyed. Ir Maul 3/4.
DD9 attacks Ir Maul(3/4). DD promotes to elite 4/5.
DD10 attacks Ir Iron. DD 3/4.

Total: 12 attacks, 11 won, 1 lost, 1 promotion.
We lost 1 DD.
Lego lost 6 Ir, 1 Sub, 4 DD.

plan
We basically have 3 fleet.
- Northern fleet leaves from Hurricane, and sails to the fork on Forkmouth, Sandonorico and Quanto Mechanico. Needs to sail close to Lego stack of BB.
- Southern fleet leaves from Sufa, sails to fork on Quanto Mechanico and Abilene.
- Deep Southern fleet is an empty fleet, and sails to fork on Abilene and Tiperrary. Only consists of 3 TR and a few defenders, but will be within chaining range of the S fleet. It could bring 24 M to Lego's shore, so they can't leave Tiperrary undefended.

We will try to chain extra troops to the transports during the next few turns. As we will not know which chains will succeed (there are Lego subs around), precise troop composition is uncertain. In total, our invasion force exists of
> 56 M
> 50 T
> 20 I
9 S
3 E
no artillery
a minimum of bombers

Further, RP is going to join us. However, we were late in planning it, and as a result, they will be a few turns behind us, they won't be present on D-day.

We will provide Lego troop numbers for as long as possible, but they might expose our spy. As far as we can see, Lego is the only other civ with a CIA built.

DeepO

[Shiber]

IMHO it'd be best to crop the whole bottom bit of the image rather than cover the part that shows our gold and income with a black rectangle.
That way it's less of an insult, and probably less obvious that we don't really trust them.

[Aeson]

Same with the left side. I don't think we want to be blacking out anything to show mistrust.

I'd rather send a screen of the end of this turn anyways.

[DeepO]

Well, I can live with that. I'll redo them in a moment.

We can send them both screenshots, of this turn and last. But I would rather do it before we move our transports into position.

OTOH, it doesn't really matter if Lego could know our position or not... but if at all possible, why risk giving the information to them?

DeepO

[Aeson]

I think we should be as open as possible with information and GoW right now. Per the usual argument, if GoW is on Lego's side it won't matter if they know where our fleet is or not. We'll lose.

Hiding information from GoW (at this time) might make them feel something is not right. That could lead to them hesitating, backing out, or even changing their alliance at worst.