GoW- Diplomacy comments #2

[notyoueither]

Notes on a momentus chat.

GoW loosened the strings on the bag, but required some assurance from us before they would open it. Nathan and I conferred in our private channel. We agreed that there was a consensus here to grant an NAP with GoW to set up the conditions for war on Bob.

Therefore, I agreed to a 30 turn NAP with GoW, effective 50BC, with a condition that it be kept secret by both sides. GoW then revealed the contents of the bag. I will consider the NAP finalised when I receive a ratified document from GoW, but we should abide by it unless they refuse to send such a document.

ND and GoW will attack RP in 10BC.

They invite us to send units. They were trying to gain assurances that we would leave Bob after the war. Nathan and I discouraged such ideas. GoW tried to blame ND for the no cities on Bob condition.

We are arranging a chat with GoW and ND on Sunday at 1800 GMT.

We, as a team, are sworn to utmost secrecy with regards to the contents of this chat. That goes without saying, however given the level of GoW's concern on the subject, and the contents, I feel it beneficial to emphasise that here.

We must be very careful. ND and GoW over-running RP and turning on us in the South would be a likely scenario. We cannot force the issue, or that would be assured.

We are in a good position. Without an NAP with ND, we are a threat to their plans still. Lego is being discounted by GoW. I think they are making a grave error.

The future looks bright. However. there are some remaining clouds in the sky.

[asleepathewheel]

Interesting log.

I wonder how they want to partition Bob, post RP. Looks to be a mish mash of nationalities, with GoW cities on both sides of ND. Pehaps they have some city exchange planned out to smooth it out.


Why would we get involved in this if they won't allow us to keep the cities? I think at a minimum we must be allowed two cities on Bob, where Barcelona currently stands and the coastal town southwest of it, netting us two more luxuries. Perhaps a third on the other coast where Vigo is or the town with the ivory, giving us another lux and a quick jump to the eastern edge of lego.

I don't think paying us in exchange for the cities is adequate. How much is a size 5 city worth? Certainly more than they can afford to pay us. And they dont' have anything else thats valuable, ie. techs. And the promise of a joint mission on lego is quite distant at this point, and we know GoW has a short attention span.

The elimination of that RP galley does sound satisfying.


normally I would think this a trap, but they seem to just want us to watch from the sidelines for the most part.


Anyone want to bet that this plan gets out before 10BC? Will RP ask for lego to launch against northern bob? If miraculously RP doesn't learn of our pact, will they come to us? We need to prepare for how to deal with them. What about Vox, would they land a wave or two of immortals in the north?

--Which reminds me, will Vox be off our continent by then? Don't want them to get any ideas while everybody is paying attention to Bob.


The thought of riders and ansars swooping down together is a bit....unnerving. Hmm. Going to be slow going through all that jungle though.


Would GoW RoP Rape ND? Tantalizing thought.

Are ND and GoW still weak compared to us? What about RP? I think they might need us to open an Eastern front to tip the scales a bit. And I think we would be well served to take out their latest settlements quickly, nothing will be worse than having to listen to RP ***** and moan while taking four or five extra turns to move south.

Maybe lego will let RP share New Estonia with Vox? That would be awfully cozy.

[Aeson]

Well, the timing is about perfect, although the alliances aren't the best (for us to make gains on Bob, they are the best for just killing RP though). RP should have most of it's forces looking N by the time we land, and everything SE of the Mountains will probably fall relatively quickly. I doubt ND and GoW think we're in much of a position to do damage here, we should take advantage of it. If they are willing to trade tiles on Lego for tiles on Bob... we coudl come out with most of Lego (we shouldn't do the trades until they actually have tiles on Lego though).

The interesting thing will be to see how long GoW and ND are willing to partner up. GoW's getting a huge window of opportunity if ND is busy in the S, and ND has a good chance of drawing GoW's troops into an ambush.

I feel bad for RP though. 3v1 isn't very sporting. It's also kinda scary, because for this to work right ND and GoW have to be pretty much joined at the hip. ND's already shown a tremendous amount of faith in GoW by relying on them for Chivalry... and now they're going to let Riders pass freely through their territory while they are fighting RP.

We shouldn't commit to a vs Lego alliance yet. Lego may be our only hope at keeping ND/GoW from winning.

[notyoueither]

Good thoughts Sleepy and Aeson. The full implications are just beginning to sink in for me, since now I am not wondering about multiple scenarios and am focused on a single eventuality.

[zeit]

Wow- good going guys!

A wise decision on the NAP- I hope GoW appreciates the deviation from regular Stormish treaty ratification procedure was made there...

I'll comment more later on- but I'll just say that 3v1 is problematic, given the geography, especially with us biting on the south. We should push for more than two cities, though- since we'll be bringing sizable force, and RP is huge. I wouldn't aim for the 'fair" one-third, since we're obviously risking less than ND, and probably GoW as well, but a nice share of RP would do.

There's no other way, besides letting them duke it out- and it should be considered as well.

[Shiber]

Hopefully, if we take the south bit, we can later team up with GoW against ND and divide the continent before we devour Lego.
By then it might be possible to safely traverse the seas and oceans, so Lego might be a factor in such a war. The future certainly looks interesting.

[zeit]

NYE- could you pass me the NAP document, so that I'll send it to UnO (if you don't mind, of course)?

[OPD]

Originally posted by Aeson
I feel bad for RP though. 3v1 isn't very sporting.

RP have screwed up royally here, they had the world at their feet in terms of diplomacy and they blew it.

They can have no one to blame but themselves for the position they are soon to be in.

The mistake they made was being complacent, they had the best relations and the best diplomats but didn't act upon it. How hard is it for them to realize that the best/only way to avoid people ganging up on you is to set up an alliance against someone else. Even if they couldn't have trusted GoW they could have offered ND a good enough deal regarding spliting GoW territory. They don't even have an abassador to GoW, and this is the team who is going to win through superior diplomacy?

Perhap RP thought they could simply coast along and win without too much effort.

The price for complacency is great and it is one that will be paid by RP shortly.
(I might make that my sig if/when war breaks out)


In terms of GS it would be valuable to learn how ND/GoW intend to split RP's land so that we can make plans to sour relations between them, if we take alot of RP cities we could start alot of tension between them in terms of who gets which city.

Of course we may keep all the cities we take, we shall see. 2 cities on bob will not exactly be reward enough for our efforts but it would be a foot hold and an unthreatening presence in terms of spliting ND/GoW.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Aeson
I feel bad for RP though. 3v1 isn't very sporting.

Very true. I am in no hurry to be part of the first wave. I think we should wait to see what develops. At a certain point we would have to intercede of course, however there is no reason for us to be the weight that decides things at the crucial moment.

Originally posted by zeit
NYE- could you pass me the NAP document, so that I'll send it to UnO (if you don't mind, of course)?

I have not written it, zeit. I am trying to foist that off on UnO. I will write something if they do not respond by the end of the weekend.

[notyoueither]

Well, I suppose the chat was dissapointing. No one showed up from GoW, and I was late. Then I missed DareKill when he replied. Darn. UnO came along eventually, and we chatted for a short while.

He has sent us the ratified NAP. It looks good. I will wait a bit for comment before sending it back to him as ratified by us.

[asleepathewheel]

amusing about theMPP RPs trying to get. The stalling part is the best as it does echo what RP did to lux early in the game, as admitted by Togas in the Intersite forum. And to top off that RP's "deviousness "is going to bite them in the ass is priceless. PTW karma.

Wonder if the MPP was general or specific to us or ND. Probably us. 5 pages is ridiculous. One line is necessary. They attack us, you declare war, over the next 20 turns. RP is killing themselves while they are patting each other on the back.

edit: just read this line from the inter forum by togas: Stalling -- as an amusing sidenote, the "stalling" tactic I mentioned above was intentionally used only once. H_E is confusing stalling with another negotiation tactic: negotiating from strength. When you know you have the upperhand in a situation, press your advantage. What H_E and several less astute GoW members failed to see was, we knew they needed the deal more than us.

a bit condescending, eh? I had only been thinking about Togas being a bastard towards us, had forgotten how he has acted toward

[Arrian]

DAMNIT!

I liked my scenario better (GoW+GS vs. ND+RP). How in the hell are they gonna divide RPs land?

And they want us to send troops but not keep any cities? Are they nuts?

Does anyone think we could manage to drive a wedge between ND and GoW such that once RP is toast, those two go at it, with us helping GoW? It could at least be discussed with them (subject to the confidentiality provision they used in the chat).

Otherwise, we have 2 options: 1) help take out RP, and then go along for the attack on Lego; or 2) attack ND... possibly thereby convincing GoW to help us finish them off once RP is done (our timing would have to be just right here... wait until GoW & ND are making real gains vs. RP, then land everything we've got and hit ND as hard as we can).

Actually, there is a 3rd option, I suppose... try to team up with Lego. But what type of army do they have? I don't want an alliance with a civ that brings a knife to a gunfight.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

If no one objects, I would like to have zeit return the NAP to GoW as ratified by GS in a little less than 24 hours (as close to that as is convenient for him).

[Theseus]

Summino***** at that last chat!!

This is now our chance to take a grip on the world. I do NOT believe that UnO and MZ are dissemblers... thus, in concert with GoW, I believe that we can take control of the Bobian situation, and further, ND and Lego. The trick, of course, will be managing relations with GoW.

[Arrian]

Yeah, I just read that last impromtu chat as well, and it looks really good...

We grab our 3-4 city foothold and see what ND does... talking closely with GoW the whole time.

-Arrian