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Senate Bill: Forbidding the assimilation of foreign workers

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  • #16
    Equality before the law! Free the slaves first!
    "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise can not see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.
    Term 9 and 10 Domestic Minister of the C3DG I., Term 8 Regional Governor of Old Persia in the C3DG and proud citizen of Apolyton. Royal Ambassador to Legoland in the C3 PTW DG, Foreign Affairs Minister and King of the United Kingdom in the MZO C3CDG and leader of the Monarchist Imperialist team. Moody Sir Aidun (The Impatient) of the Holy Templar Order in the C4BtSDG

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    • #17
      Eh, think about our economics first. As has been said before, these foreign workers cost us nothing to maintain, that is a HUGE benefit to how many units we can support.

      The ironic thing is that our own workers don't even have a choice in whether they are forced to work in the fields or not, making them slaves in exactly the same way, yet no one is raising an uproar that it is morally right to free them. In essence, we are saying that it is okay to "enslave" our own people. And enslave is a farce term in itself. They are doing public works, a highly honorable profession in our great nation. Please!
      First Civ3DG: 3rd and 4th Term Minister of Public Works. | Second Civ3DG: First Term Vice President | ISDG: Ambassador in the Foreign Affairs Ministry | Save Apolyton! Kill the Off-Topic Forum!

      (04/29/2004) [Trip] we will see who is best in the next round ; [Trip] that is why I left this team ; [Trip] I don't need the rest of you to win |
      The solution to 1984 is 1776! | Here's to hoping that GoW's military isn't being run by MasterZen: Hehe! | DaveRocks! or something. ;)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Aggie
        The problem Epistax is this, the DM has said he wants to start integrating slaves into cities already so yes it is common sense to me and you, but some people don't see it as such.
        Aggie
        I'd like to explain my orders on the issue. E_T requested that I send 5 native workers to Howitzerville to put it in WLAD. I didn't intend to integrate any worker now, but there is a military need for it right now.

        I wanted to send French or American workers since they won't be more likely to revolt than our citizens, while they work twice as slow (and we still need as much workforce as we can for several turns).

        I have been pointed to the culture flipping formula, which uses the inprecise "foreign citizens" label. This label might mean only citizens from the threatening culture, OR might mean all foreign citizens. Out of prudence, I changed my orders to integrate native workers.

        I do not intend to integrate any workers until all PW is done (in 4-5 turns), and I'll follow the results of the polls on whether I'll integrate natives or slaves first.
        "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
        "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
        "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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        • #19
          Aidun - how will we have equality if we free the slaves FIRST. That implies that there are some people we aren't freeing. Therefore, we must not have equality

          THE SLAVES WERE MADE TO SERVE US!

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          • #20
            I meant to do that first before integrating our own workforce in our cities. It's just the way you read it.

            NO THEY WERE NOT! WE ENSLAVED THEM BECAUSE WE WERE MADE TO BE ABLE TO ENSLAVE THEM!

            Aidun
            "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise can not see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.
            Term 9 and 10 Domestic Minister of the C3DG I., Term 8 Regional Governor of Old Persia in the C3DG and proud citizen of Apolyton. Royal Ambassador to Legoland in the C3 PTW DG, Foreign Affairs Minister and King of the United Kingdom in the MZO C3CDG and leader of the Monarchist Imperialist team. Moody Sir Aidun (The Impatient) of the Holy Templar Order in the C4BtSDG

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            • #21
              You do not understand the subtle ways in which the Great Banana works. He made us able to enslave them so that we WOULD enslave them so that they would serve us, as as they were made to do.

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              • #22
                hi ,

                we should let them join our cities , this way they shall bring us more wealth , more science , etc , .....

                and our workforce should be working with monthly income of no less then one lyton an hour !

                have a nice day
                - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                • #23
                  [notRP]Actually, they do us far more good as workers, because a pop point is just worth a pop point, whereas a worker is worth a pop point plus ten shields.d Also, pop points grow continually, while we have to BUILD workers.[/notRP]

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by skywalker
                    You do not understand the subtle ways in which the Great Banana works. He made us able to enslave them so that we WOULD enslave them so that they would serve us, as as they were made to do.
                    Quite complicated. Sorry, but I doubt that the Great Banana works like this. You just know very well how to formulate your phrase.

                    Aidun
                    "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise can not see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.
                    Term 9 and 10 Domestic Minister of the C3DG I., Term 8 Regional Governor of Old Persia in the C3DG and proud citizen of Apolyton. Royal Ambassador to Legoland in the C3 PTW DG, Foreign Affairs Minister and King of the United Kingdom in the MZO C3CDG and leader of the Monarchist Imperialist team. Moody Sir Aidun (The Impatient) of the Holy Templar Order in the C4BtSDG

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by skywalker
                      [notRP]Actually, they do us far more good as workers, because a pop point is just worth a pop point, whereas a worker is worth a pop point plus ten shields.d Also, pop points grow continually, while we have to BUILD workers.[/notRP]
                      hi ,

                      big cities produce loads of shields , .....

                      let them join our cities and wait until they have joined us , then you can send them back out , in the mean time let the city they have joined grow one , make a worker out of it

                      it shall bring us more money in the long run , more science , and why not pay some workers if in return they work faster

                      have a nice day
                      - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                      - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                      WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                      • #26
                        Yes, but we'll have big cities ANYWAYS. It takes more time and resources to produce a pop point than a worker.

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                        • #27
                          Some people (Shiber specifically, but I assume other as well) believe I want to integrate slaves in the cities for RP reasons. It is wrong, I always integrate slaves sooner than national in my own games (where I don't do RP at all), here is why :

                          1. I don't intend to integrate workers before all improvements in non German lands are completed. Most workers will remain once we only have the German lands to improve.

                          2. We'll have hospitals soon, meaning the population of our cities will be able to reach 20 or more. Since an extra city laborer is an excellent asset, I'll integrate as many workers as reasonable. The demographic jump will incredibly boost us.

                          3. We don't have too many workers. In fact, we don't have enough workers to completely fill the cities once they build hospitals. Since I want the highest possible population in our cities soon (of course, limited by unhappiness), I want the smallest number of workers in the fields. Hence, I want only the best workers in the fields : the nationals.

                          4. All of you pro-slavery say : "2 slaves do the same as a national but don't cost anything". It is right, but you forget something : 2 laborers in a city produce twice more than one. If we compare the efficiency of integrating 2 slaves rather than integrating one national, the former is much better. Also, these integrated slaves will produce 1 or 2 gold, and will pay (or more than pay) the national worker they replace.

                          5. I'd like to integrate many nationals anyways, once the time has come. It is just that the little workforce remaining should be entirely made of nationals IMO.
                          Of course, my decision will depend on the result of this senate bill or upcoming senate bills. But I wanted to point out this senate bill, if adopted, will be detrimental to Apolytonia's economy
                          Thank you for reading.


                          Once our cities reach maximum population, using slaves in the fields will be economically better. Until then, we have to maximize our population by letting our most inefficient workers go to the cities.
                          My anti-slavery position right now isn't dictated by Roleplaying. Maybe we'll want to integrate RP in the game when slavery will become clearly beneficial for Apolytonia (in the future), but right now emancipation is the most reasonable option.
                          "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                          "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                          "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                          • #28
                            Why do you want to keep workers who cost us over workers who do not?
                            (\__/)
                            (='.'=)
                            (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                            • #29
                              Inefficient? How is a worker who costs nothing inefficient?

                              Please explain.
                              (\__/)
                              (='.'=)
                              (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                              • #30
                                NYE : my post above was intended to be an explanation
                                But I guess it is unclear so :

                                - To understand my point of view, you have to consider what a slave worker brings as a worker, and what he would bring as a free laborer in a city.

                                - You also have to understand that our cities won't reach thir max. pop immediately when hospitals are built. We have to help our cities get bigger quickly, by integrating our workforce.

                                - Ideally, we should integrate all our workforce (nationals + slaves) in our cities soon. This would lead to a demographic jump, and would give us much more shields / money / science (and a definitive hegemony). However, we have to keep some workers out of the cities for pollution cleaning / improvement of conquered land.

                                - We need to keep as few workers as possible, to have the highest population in the cities as possible, ASAP. Again, this is in some turns, when all tiles improvements will be done, and hospitals built.

                                - The problem is that we don't have enough workers to completely fill the gap between the current population of our cities, and the maximal population of our cities. We'll have to make a choice regarding who remains out of cities.

                                - We need the highest possible population in the cities. One integrated slave is worth one integrated national, while 2 slave workers are worth 1 national worker.
                                Imagine we need 60 slaves for pollution cleaning et al. If we integrate only nationals, we have 60 pop wasted out of the cities. If we let nationals handle this job, we only have 30 pop wasted in the fields. In this theoretical example, integrating nationals would mean we'd have a comparative loss of 30 pop !

                                - In short, if we integrate slaves before nationals, we'd have twice more new city dwellers than the other way around. These extra city dwellers will sure be very useful for the greatness of Apolytonia (and they will sure bring more than the mere gpt a national worker costs)


                                Edit : sorry if it is still unclear, but it isn't easy to manipulate complex concepts in a foreign language :\
                                "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                                "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                                "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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