Impeachment of Aggie, Togas and Arnelos

[Arnelos]

First of all:

Originally posted by Togas
Article V. Impeachment
1 Any citizen may bring the case of impeachment of an elected Minister, President, or Judge to a member of the Court.

Second of all, there is established precedent for ANY citizen (regardless of whether affected by any specific action) to bring charges of impeachment against a minister. Aside from this being precedent, it is ADDITIONALLY the case that this makes sense: ALL citizens have an interest in the INTEGRITY of their ministers. If a minister violates a law (whether or not it is their law is irrelevant), this means that said minister is acting outside the laws and ANY citizen has the right to ask for their impeachment on the grounds that the minister is no longer capable of maintaining their trust or that of ANY citizen on the matter.

As regards your argument that Aggie committed no crime because there's a line in the Constitution giving him some measure of discretionary power...

It should be noted that the FIRST OFFENSE by Aggie was failing to end the chat when war was declared and decisions needed to be made which would violate current Senate Laws. If there was ever a reason that something might be considered a "national emergency", that very well might be it... Thus the only way you can argue that the SECOND charge (that of violating the Senate Laws due to the situation being an "emergency") is invalid is to make the FIRST charge valid. Either way, Aggie is still culpable.

As for DAVOUT's right to bring the case, I have (at least) been consistent from the beginning on this issue: He has (and should never have believed that he was infringed) on his right to bring forward whatever cases for impeachment that he wishes. Whether they be with merit or without merit is of no relevance: he has the right to at least be heard by the Court and the Court can determine the merit of the case.

That said, DAVOUT, just because you have the RIGHT to do something doesn't mean you are entitled to the exercise of said right being popular

However, I honestly admire your courage in bringing forward this case. I've been saying repeatedly for the past week that I admitted that I simply didn't have the guts to bring a case against Aggie because I feared what it would do to the community (even though I knew that what he did deserved it). I also repeatedly said that it looked like no-one else had the guts either. Well, you did it.

I may think the circumstances under which you did so (having just lost hte court case) are why many think you look petty and that bringing charges against myself and Togas serves no purpose other than cheapen your case (as is evident by the above thread), but I still have to give you credit for having the guts to do what others probably were just too timid to do themselves: bring the case to the Court.

I think I'm ready to shut up about this for now...

I need to take care of some stuff in RL.

[Togas]

As I have just returned from a short birthday trip I return to find that nothing has been done in this case, but there have been quite a few more posts. I have three thoughts about all this:

1) This pointless impeachment is not a retrial of Case #7 nor an appeal. There shouldn't be any rearguing of the issue because the judges aren't going to change their minds about it. Davout originally asked for an appeal and most of us discussed it and were going to reject it before MSS withdrew the request.

2) I respect people who have the courage to stand up and do what is right, but I do not respect people who have the stubborness to stand up and do what is wrong because they want to be right. The ends don't justify the means, which is exactly what Davout is trying to do. He'll go to whatever means he has to (blaming The Court for it in the process) to get someone to say that he was right and everyone else was wrong. He'll hurt Aggie and harass Arnelos and myself just because his interpretation of the law was rejected unanimously. I have no respect for these sorts of actions and I do not share Arnelos's begrudging admiration.

3) I wonder, as do most of Apolytonia, why The Court can't act on this matter in a timely fashion. Could someone from the inside please make and post a decision?

--Togas

[Sheik]

I would post the decision but I think NYE is going to do so soon and wanted to PM Nimitz and Godking first (they were also away this weekend). If NYE is unable to post it by 1pm I will post a makeshift decision and once we get something more presentable that will be posted as the official decision.

I would like to point out again that The Court isn't slow when comes to making a decision it is slow when it comes to posting a decision. Maybe it is about time that we got a reporter that could post decisions and sort through other stuff. I think that would speed the process up.

[Aggie]

Arnelos,I am somewhat disappointed with your response. Not because it is against me, but because your facts imply that we played on several turns after the DOW. In fact we stopped the very turn that this happened. Yes we did some attacks and movements but since I was legal SMC then and ET was acting SMC I decided it was not worthy of stopping before we had completed these moves, but we did stop before ending the turn. I did want to go on, but listened to the cabinet who wanted(looking back rightly) to stop. The act that made listening to the FAM positions impractical was NOT the DOW but the invasion of roman troops w/o DOW(during turn 1). This was the unforeseen circumstance that made it acceptable to slightly alter FAM orders. Unless we want to stop for every single unforeseen event. So I was well within the spirit of the law(and more importantly the will of the people) and in the end that is what matters.
Aggie

[notyoueither]

Decision

In the matter of DAVOUT calling for the Impeachment of Arnelos, Togas, and Aggie the Court has decided:

vs Arnelos, dismissed (4 to 0, notyoueither, GodKing, Sheik, panag).

vs Togas, dismissed (4 to 0, notyoueither, GodKing, Sheik, panag).

vs Aggie, dismissed (3 to 0, notyoueither, GodKing, Sheik; with 1 abstention, panag).

More information will be posted at a later time in the topped court thread.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
To The Court,

I have the regret to deny the presence of Justice notyoueither amonst the Justices stating on the present case.

He has clearly expressed a bias againt my case and hostility against my person in the course of the hearing (see above post).

Motion denied.

[GodKing]

I appologize also to the people who were reading this thread. Last week toward the end of the week we all discussed this. We used PM's. On friday afternoon, I thought all was decided, except who was going to post what the decision was. I was away for the weekend, and did not log on until this (monday) morning. As I am at work, and now on my lunch break, I can do a little typing regarding this.

What NYE has indicated is accurate. The delay to posting is caused by the lack of a "leader" if you will among the court. Each case is assigned a new leader each and every time. That person is responsible for doing the write up. We never came up with one on this case. I left for the weekend assuming the other justices would do it. They probably did the same. I think to help alleviate this, we have to sit down amongst ourselves and come up with a better system for handling these issues in a timely mannor.

DAVOUT - by your posts, to me it sounds like you are not compleatly understanding the issues that the court ruled upon in case #7. I would be more than happy to sit in a chat with you and go over it point by point. Or, even better, if you are anywhere in the Detroit area, sit down over a beer (or other beverage of your choice) and do so. As with most legal things, it is confusing until you break it up into parts. Any persons so interested in such a chat PM me and I will arange it.

Again, appologies for the delays.

GK

[DAVOUT]

Happy end !

Our hero Aggie cannot any longer be subject to any suspicion, let alone accusation (I built the Arc de Triomphe after all). Our Nation is not in the mud, it is at is best economically, militarily, scientifically, and we, the people, have shown to the world that we are prepared to risk ANYTHING to protect those who have earned our respect and our esteem.

It was so easy finally, why all this fuss was made ? We respect the law as long as we understand it. We dont want it to be translated by highpriests. We are in Apolytonia, we want our laws, not the common law referred to by some.

Sorry, Togas, sorry Arnelos, your only crime was to be present to the alleged wrongdoings, and to be celebrities of the Empire.

Godking, I dont refuse your offer, but beware, you will be explaining difficult things to a stubborn and irresponsible guy.

[GodKing]

Understood. If you are going to be around on wednesday (the 1st) I am planning on putting together a Gazette. We can do it then. I live in Detroit, which is Eastern Time Zone. Let me know your schedule.

GK

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by GodKing
Understood. If you are going to be around on wednesday (the 1st) I am planning on putting together a Gazette. We can do it then. I live in Detroit, which is Eastern Time Zone. Let me know your schedule.

GK

I am leaving early to morrow morning for year end in family. Ill be back thursday afternoon (gmt+1).

[Thud]

From what I see here, you may as well have another go at my head with this case. You could reason that I was the one that moved the troops that led to the situation in which the MPPs were signed. This reasoning is certainly just as strong as the justification for the impeachment of Togas and Arnelos.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Aggie
Arnelos,I am somewhat disappointed with your response. Not because it is against me, but because your facts imply that we played on several turns after the DOW. In fact we stopped the very turn that this happened. Yes we did some attacks and movements but since I was legal SMC then and ET was acting SMC I decided it was not worthy of stopping before we had completed these moves, but we did stop before ending the turn. I did want to go on, but listened to the cabinet who wanted(looking back rightly) to stop. The act that made listening to the FAM positions impractical was NOT the DOW but the invasion of roman troops w/o DOW(during turn 1). This was the unforeseen circumstance that made it acceptable to slightly alter FAM orders. Unless we want to stop for every single unforeseen event. So I was well within the spirit of the law(and more importantly the will of the people) and in the end that is what matters.
Aggie

I'll grant that at least you didn't end the turn.

However, I'll point out that the only reason you didn't end the turn was because I put up one hell of a stink about ending the chat with a lot of people in the chat angry at me that I didn't want us to continue playing the game.

The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was that I told you that if you ended the turn it would mean a Court case. THAT was when you finally relented and decided to end the chat (and you weren't happy about it in the slightest).

That you ended the chat there is precisely WHY I didn't take the matter to the Court. You showed some courage in ending the chat there because there were a lot of people on your side of that issue who were PISSED that the chat was ended, violations to the NewCon or no.

Furthermore, you admitted that you knew about the illegality of the MPPs when I figured you'd just made an honest mistake. I have a great deal of respect for your honesty there. Not quite sure how many other people I would expect to do the same thing in the same situation.

Now... I'm done with this issue... I think we should just bury it at this point and move on.

[GodKing]

nye PMed me and indicated that he will be leaving for a while. He will not be able to write up the "official" report in the court thread. I told him I would do so, however it will not probably be until wednesday or so. Sorry if this delay causes any problems, however the decision has been rendered (read nye's posts above), it is just the formality of a write up that is missing.

gk

[Panag]

hi ,

so the matter is now completely cleared out , ....

no more calls for "justice" now from anyone




good

have a nice day

and a happy new year to all , no matter if you use a MAC or not , no matter your race , religion , gender or planet you are from

[History Guy]

I am glad to note that the case is ended, successfully. I know my voice means nothing, though it once did mean something, very briefly. The lack of national pride is disconcerting, and the attempt to take down our old heroes is just as disconcerting. I remember one time in our past when a similar list of men was created by a young radical, Arnelos himself, a man suspect this day. Then I opposed that sort of demolition of the hero, and so do I now. The oldest heroes of Apolytonia were rooted out, Uber Krux, our old general, included, and were nearly slated for execution as 'enemies of the new regime'. My old voice croaked out in defense of our old values, and it does now the same.

I am glad of our vindications here, especially of Aggie, our old war hero, the man who made our empire, and of Togas, my old friend.

Gaius Publius History Guy
Villa Historia