Confirmation of panag as VP

[Nolan]

Yeah impeachment is a bit extreme, I'm just talking about discussing what people think is wrong, airing their problems

Regards

[MrWhereItsAt]

It is clear that we (I don't mean all of us, just the "we" that includes me) are not just uncertain that panag will be able to fill the job, but that we are downright annoyed at his confirmation as VP, and we are afraid of great problems ahead.

Yes, you may say "well that's your own opinion, MWIA, and if you were in the majority then it would be seriously considered, but as it stands panag was confirmed by a majority voting in this poll". Yes he was. But only since he was presented to us as the sole option. If indeed he was the only option, then ask yourself why did so many reject his confirmation, more people than most if not all confirmations/one person elections in the history of our game?

IIRC at least one who was approached privately about being VP and declined the nomination came out and said he would now accept the nomination if panag was the final nominee chosen. Why? It's not just me and Shiber - panag is not seen to be fit to be VP at this time by a large number of us voting here, and thus likely by more who did not vote. This demonstrates a barrier to the game, as we (again, some of us) are not willing to rely on panag based on what we have seen of him so far. If I was President or a Minister right now I would feel forced into making sure that all responsibilities were handled by the elected Executive, as there would be no way I could leave the responsibility up to someone who some citizens distrust so much. Hell, there's at least one poster who in this thread said that our chosen VP is back on his ignore list! Make that two - he remains on mine.

This may all be nice and legal by that document, but previously we had at the very least the chance of having a real contested election for VP. Never mind the fact that throughout most of our game there has tended to be only one person who actually runs, here we have been given one candidate only, no write-in option, and it is my firm belief that if we had any other option but "panag or nuthin'", there would be a distinctly different result here. I have no complaints about the way the system was followed - what aggravates me more and more often here is the system itself.

[Meshelic]

Arnelos had quite a handful of candidates he decided on for VP. Many of them declined his offer. I wasn't one of the ones who declined, by the way. I'm sure there are others who would have liked the position and saw themselves as capable of doing a good job.

Panag hasn't.....demonstrated much cooperation. That's all I can really say about him. I don't hold anything personal against him at all, but his behaviour (which I understand is in some small ways attributed to having to "be on the defensive" against the rest of the people who voted nay) hasn't really helped his position either.

[Panag]

hi ,

well if some people have a problem , why dont they say so , ......

or maybe some people would like to make a problem , .....
strange how its allways the same people who expect problems ahead , problems those same people seem to cause by the way , ......

so what do you want , to hear panag say NO , let some-one else take the job , ......

but lets talk seriously then , lets talk how many people bring up negative talk about others just because some people dont seem to agry to the OT threads , ......

impeachment for what reason , maybe some others need to be impeached , .....

man , oh man , what a deal about a place in the civ3demo game , ..... thats what its all about , a game , where people come together and have fun , where people try to build something , but oh no , this and this person are not allowed , because this and that person have done this or that , or because they have this or that avatar , or they have this and this opinion , or they have this or that color of skin , or they have this or that religious belief , or they have this or that computer , or they love this or that comp progam , ...... etc , ..... etc , ....

duh , thats just plain old BS with capital letters and a bunch of lame excuses , ......

oh yeah , since some people cant read some things , ....

the " , ......" means , either a pauze or open to comment or unfinished please insert own views

how is one viewed "fit" to hold a job , off course when one is constantly having the legs from his or her chair being cut its a bit hard to do a job , .....

when the president thought of panag as his vp he knew what he did , so is he therefore also incompetend , or any of the other members of government who sayed yes , ......

and what did panag ask the president to do , well panag asked " only after a vote " , ......

and why on earth is it that some allways have to explain everything over and over again in the uttermost little detail about this or that why , while others get practically away with everything , ........

oh yeah , what is wrong with wishing some one or everyone a "happy day" or saying "hi" , well for some it seems it gives reason to attack a person with such lewd and rude language that it makes you sick , ......

well , no matter what ,

"have a nice day"




and last but not least ; this message does not need to be altered over and over again , ... read "edit" , .....
so that one can say later " i did not say that , look "

[Panag]

hi ,

oh yeah , since some angry e-mails come in ;

THE ABOVE MESSAGE IS NOT AN ATTACK TO ANYONE

its not to be regarded a direct personal attack , .......

since some people prefer to send emails instead of posting here



have a nice day & merry X-mass

[Shiber]

Originally posted by panag
but lets talk seriously then , lets talk how many people bring up negative talk about others just because some people dont seem to agry to the OT threads , ......

man , oh man , what a deal about a place in the civ3demo game , ..... thats what its all about , a game , where people come together and have fun , where people try to build something , but oh no , this and this person are not allowed , because this and that person have done this or that , or because they have this or that avatar , or they have this and this opinion , or they have this or that color of skin , or they have this or that religious belief , or they have this or that computer , or they love this or that comp progam , ...... etc , ..... etc , ....

Get over it man. People aren't voting against you because of some OT thread, or because you're Jewish, or because you support Sharon or because your skin is whichever color that it is. Most of us opposers don't even dislike you personally. We just see you as unfit for the job.
I would like to add that I for one don't take kindly when people see me in such low regard that they think that my judgement in a crucial poll was affected by what avatar the candidate was using. It also saddens me that in a Democratic system, a certain candidate rejects some people's votes and treats them with such contempt over a bunch of petty excuses and false accusations.

In response to all those saying that Panag should be impeached now, I would like to say that this would be premature and utterly wrong. There's no legal backing to that, so no matter how disastrous (note the sarcasm please) you think Panag's effect on the game would be, you'll just be grasping at straws if you try to impeach him at this point.
I for one intend to wait until Arnelos announces that due to some reasons he will not be able to hold a turnchat and asks Panag to do it instead. If such an event will not take place and Arnelos will run every turnchat this term then us opposers have nothing to worry about because Panag's appointment would be meaningless to the game.
However, if such an event will occur and Panag will have to run a turnchat all by himself then, as a person who voted Nay in this poll, I am certain that there will be more than enough reasons to impeach him after he proves that he is incapable of holding a complicated turnchat that can last for nearly 10 hours, follow orders correctly, use proper judgement, act according to constitution and provide the necessary reports after the chat is concluded.

To conclude, I am very much in favor of letting Panag actually do his job before we further judge him. This is why I suggested during the last turnchat that President Arnelos asks Panag to play Turn 1 of that turnchat, so that Panag can provide us all with an example, whether positive or negative, of how he would act in case he is really called into duty.
However, I was quickly silenced by Panag and blamed for trying to launch a personal attack against him. Up until this moment it has not become clear to me why a perfectly reasonable request would be met with such resistance, and some very ugly words via private messages from the VP.

[UnOrthOdOx]

If panag does not wish to run a turnchat by himself, it is perfectly within his rights to hold turnTHREADS instead. That is the President's decision, and panag can choose so if he needs to take over.

Why are you so fixated on 'running a chat'? panag will only be required to play the game and follow orders, not run a chat solo. It is time to let this go. There are strong personal feelings behind both sides of this, but none of that have much to do with the demo-game IMO.

I could think of any number of ways for someone to sabotage that chat if they so chose, in fact, even if they only wished to prove panag 'couldn't' do it, and I myself would have refused if someone had asked similar of me as VP. Remember, I ran the position, and the presidency just fine without EVER HOLDING A SINGLE CHAT.

MrWIA,

It is no secret that I have fully supported you in all your endeavors (sp). In all the time I have known you, I have learned that your first priority is to keep the game moving, to keep distraction away from the running of the game. I ask you now, how is this continued arguement going to persue that goal? You feel strongly on this issue, that is good, we all need conviction. However, you have lost the arguement according to the poll, it is time to let it go and continue your work in helping the game proceed instead of creating this further distraction.

[Shiber]

Although the president may choose to have either a turnchat or a turnthread, I think that running a turnthread when there's a war going on is simply irresponsible. During wars, feedback from the ministers and other chat participants is crucial for proper decision-making, especially when several unexpected events may happen every turn ("No plan survives first contact with the enemy").
At our current rate of progress it appears that the current war will last for most, if not all of the 7th term. IMHO, although the VP may hold turnthreads instead of turnchats, it is important that he is able to hold turnchats as well.
In any case, I believe that Panag will not be able to carry out a satisfactory turnchat or turnthread, and that if he'll ever get the chance to do so, the public will be mad at him enough for not following orders correctly, for using bad judgement or for doing something unconstitutional that he'll most likely be impeached. This is my opinion, and it is based on my previous experience with Panag and my knowledge of his character.
Anyway, all of this doesn't matter right. It's just speculations on the future and repeating things that I've already said. The point is that any motion to impeach Panag right now would be premature because he hasn't even had a chance to prove himself, for good or for bad.

As for sabotaging a turnchat, that would be pointless for anyone trying to damage Panag's reputation. If someone launched attacks against the ministers that prevented them from giving their orders or showing up for the chat then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the IRC network was taken down then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the chat room was flooded then it would be obvious that this was an act of saboteur, and certainly not the president's/VP's fault. I can think of a number of other ways to sabotage a chat (though I assure you that I have not put any thought into this until though), but none of these methods could cause the public to point their blaming fingers at whoever was running the chat.

[Shiber]

I keep deviating from the subject instead of being concise and to-the-point. Allow me to summarize:

I believe that any motion to attempt to impeach Panag at the moment would be baseless, unfair and most of all, premature, because he has not been given a chance to prove himself yet.
I am fully convinced that should Panag get a chance to play the game, in any form - turnchat or turnthread, his effect on the game would be disastrous and/or he will prove beyond any doubt that he is unfit to act as president should he be called into duty again. From that point, the road to impeachment is short.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Shiber
Although the president may choose to have either a turnchat or a turnthread, I think that running a turnthread when there's a war going on is simply irresponsible. During wars, feedback from the ministers and other chat participants is crucial for proper decision-making, especially when several unexpected events may happen every turn ("No plan survives first contact with the enemy").
At our current rate of progress it appears that the current war will last for most, if not all of the 7th term. IMHO, although the VP may hold turnthreads instead of turnchats, it is important that he is able to hold turnchats as well.
In any case, I believe that Panag will not be able to carry out a satisfactory turnchat or turnthread, and that if he'll ever get the chance to do so, the public will be mad at him enough for not following orders correctly, for using bad judgement or for doing something unconstitutional that he'll most likely be impeached. This is my opinion, and it is based on my previous experience with Panag and my knowledge of his character.
Anyway, all of this doesn't matter right. It's just speculations on the future and repeating things that I've already said. The point is that any motion to impeach Panag right now would be premature because he hasn't even had a chance to prove himself, for good or for bad.

As for sabotaging a turnchat, that would be pointless for anyone trying to damage Panag's reputation. If someone launched attacks against the ministers that prevented them from giving their orders or showing up for the chat then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the IRC network was taken down then noone could blame the president or VP for this. If the chat room was flooded then it would be obvious that this was an act of saboteur, and certainly not the president's/VP's fault. I can think of a number of other ways to sabotage a chat (though I assure you that I have not put any thought into this until though), but none of these methods could cause the public to point their blaming fingers at whoever was running the chat.

hi ,

you just cant give up can ya , .......

and while we are talking about sabotage , man you have nerve , .......

why dont you run for prez and each and every other post there is and leave some people alone , they only want to play a game afterall you know , or have you completely forgotten that that is whats all about , a game , .......

a game where people would like to have fun , not reading messages in every single thread about your discontent with some people , .......

this start to get not only very annoying but also very boring , or are you maybe trying to stop the game , are you maybe trying to sabotage it , ..... because you are doing a darn fine job on that , ......

now how many times more does it have to be asked , stop it and drop it , point .

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by Shiber
I keep deviating from the subject instead of being concise and to-the-point. Allow me to summarize:

I believe that any motion to attempt to impeach Panag at the moment would be baseless, unfair and most of all, premature, because he has not been given a chance to prove himself yet.
I am fully convinced that should Panag get a chance to play the game, in any form - turnchat or turnthread, his effect on the game would be disastrous and/or he will prove beyond any doubt that he is unfit to act as president should he be called into duty again. From that point, the road to impeachment is short.

hi ,

why dont you impeach yourself , for sabotaging the game , ....

bye

[Shiber]

I was talking to MWIA and UnOrthOdOx, whose input and past contribution to this game I extremely appreciate, almost admire in fact. However, I do not appreciate your input to this discussion, so please excuse me if I disregard your last remarks.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Shiber
I was talking to MWIA and UnOrthOdOx, whose input and past contribution to this game I extremely appreciate, almost admire in fact. However, I do not appreciate your input to this discussion, so please excuse me if I disregard your last remarks.

hi ,



bye

[Shiber]

I see I left you speechless.

[Shiber]

I think that we've all grown very tired of this discussion. Now that the poll is closed, and after 7 pages of posts, I think it's time to close this thread.
I'll PM Arnelos about this and hope that he'll agree with me on this. Panag, you can post your reply to this now, if you'd like to, so that you won't have to rant about how I always need to have the last word after this thread is closed.