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MPPs and the campaign against Germany

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  • MPPs and the campaign against Germany

    We've already discussed the possibility of using MPPs to our favor in the German campaign, but since D-turn is approaching I think it's time to reanalyze this possible (and very favorable, IMHO) course of action.

    The plan: it's quite simple. We sign a Mutual Protection Pact with Aztecs and Greece. The purpose of this plan is to give Germany a multi-front war which will make it harder for them to block us off. Additionally, the MPPs will serve as an insurance policy in case Germany decides to join allies on their side. I expect that no leader will dare move to Germany's side and declare war against a pact such as this.
    Why Aztecs? Aztecs have a lot of forces locked off in the American conquered territories, which are adjacent to our border, as well as Germany's. Though these units are somewhat outdated (we're talking knights and longbowmen here), they'll be very useful in keeping a significant portion of Germany's defenses busy while we attack from our front (near Napoleton). Furthermore, their main forces will keep the Germans busy in the north, which makes a pact with Aztecs especially worthwhile - they'll add two fronts for Germany to fight.
    Additionally, we don't want Germany to recruit the Aztecs to their side instead for the same reason - they'll attack us with their forces from the ex-American cities, and while they can't cause us substantial damage, they will stall our campaign against Germany.
    Why Greece? Greece is a powerful ally that can deter any AI civ from attacking us. Additionally, they have Ivory, and since the war with Germany will last for 20 turns because of the MPP (see sacrifices), we may want to beef-up our happiness with Ivory. Anyway, the last issue is debatable.
    The chances and sacrifices: first of all, when we sign a pact with another AI and drag them into war, we must consider the possibility that they will drag us into a war as well. However, the chance of that will be greatly reduced by the fact that both our allies will be very busy with dividing and conquering Germany and will most likely prefer not to start any more wars while they're already fighting Germany.
    Second, in a pact such as this we are not allowed to sign peace with Germany in less than 20 turns after the pact has begun, or take a rep hit. This is probably the major sacrifice that this plan requires.
    The pros: this plan will make the war with Germany much easier. We will suffer less casualties and make swifter victories. Additionally, we'll get an insurance policy against Germany bringing allies to its side. Other than that, I believe that signing a pact with an AI improves your relations with that AI, and if I'm right we'll improve our relations with Greece and Aztecs.
    Summary: for making the sacrifice of not ending the war with Germany until the MPPs end and taking certain calculated risks, we can make the war much easier for us and decrease the risk that we'll have to fight against another AI in the process to a minimum.

    Please note: I'm not a member of the government and this plan isn't official, plus we're still several turnchats away from D-turn, so the details aren't set in stone. In fact, the reason I have started this thread is so that we can discuss the specifics of this plan and refine it, or choose to scrap it altogether if the public shows overwhelming disapproval.
    Last edited by Shiber; November 23, 2002, 15:12.
    "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
    And the truth isn't what you want to see,
    Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
    - Phantom of the Opera

  • #2
    Make sure Germany attacks us on our territory once if we go ahead with this, so the MPPs are activated.
    Proud Member of the ISDG Apolyton Team; Member #2 in the Apolyton Yact Club.
    King of Trafalgar and Lord of all Isolationia in the Civ III PTW Glory of War team.
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    • #3
      Once we start taking German cities the Germans will react and we'll have to defend our new acquisitions. Then the MPP will kick in and Germany will find itself in war with Greece and Aztecs.
      "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
      And the truth isn't what you want to see,
      Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
      - Phantom of the Opera

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      • #4

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        • #5
          I am all for this...

          One thought however...

          If we are really concerned about getting dragged into another war due to Greece or Aztec aggression, should we consider alliances instead? This is especially true if we see ourselves in a 20 turn conflict. I know that the alliances will cost more, but it could be worth it considering we can keep the conflicts contained?

          Mss
          Remember.... pillage first then burn.

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          • #7
            Manic: alliances instead of MPPs would eliminate the advantage of having an insurance policy against Germany. Only if we have an MPP with another civ will it come to our aid. In an alliance, the other civ only promises to go to war against the civ that you're allying with, but it doesn't promise to come to your aid in case you get in trouble.
            Panag: I don't see why not. They can't abuse the RoP if we have a pact unless they don't mind taking a huge rep hit for violating two treaties and getting the other nation in the pact to declare war on them as well.
            "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
            And the truth isn't what you want to see,
            Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
            - Phantom of the Opera

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            • #8
              Originally posted by Shiber
              Manic: alliances instead of MPPs would eliminate the advantage of having an insurance policy against Germany. Only if we have an MPP with another civ will it come to our aid. In an alliance, the other civ only promises to go to war against the civ that you're allying with, but it doesn't promise to come to your aid in case you get in trouble.
              Panag: I don't see why not. They can't abuse the RoP if we have a pact unless they don't mind taking a huge rep hit for violating two treaties and getting the other nation in the pact to declare war on them as well.
              hi ,

              we could sit back a bit with the ROP , letting the others do some of the hard work , then we could profit and take the cities , .....

              or we could sign one with germany and abuse it , ...

              we should study our options a bit further , ....

              have a nice day
              - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
              - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
              WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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              • #9
                Any MPP will drag us into a war that's:
                20 turns long
                OR
                lasts until Germay is destoyed.
                No Democracy can survive an offence war that's more than 10 turns. We'd have to change to Monarchy or Communism or go to Republic immediately and build Police stations. None of these options will help us get ToE.We could ally with any neighbor except Greece, else Greece would get too much territory after we made peace, and remain a competitor.

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                • #10
                  Originally posted by realpolitic
                  Any MPP will drag us into a war that's:
                  20 turns long
                  OR
                  lasts until Germay is destoyed.
                  No Democracy can survive an offence war that's more than 10 turns. We'd have to change to Monarchy or Communism or go to Republic immediately and build Police stations. None of these options will help us get ToE.We could ally with any neighbor except Greece, else Greece would get too much territory after we made peace, and remain a competitor.
                  hi ,

                  ahem , if you plan your actions you can even make war for more the 40 turns , .......

                  have a nice day
                  - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                  - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                  WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                  • #11
                    Sure we can survive it. We have 7 luxuries. We can get an 8th luxury (ivory) from Greece for a reduced price in exchange for an MPP+RoP, which will give us four additional happy faces. We can build colosseums in some cities, which will give us 3 additional content faces. In the worst case, we can use an entertainer or two. War weariness isn't as catastrophic as you imagine when your population can't grow beyond size 12.
                    Alternatively, we could sign the MPP five turns before we declare war and then lower the minimum length of the war to 15 turns.
                    "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
                    And the truth isn't what you want to see,
                    Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
                    - Phantom of the Opera

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                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Shiber
                      Alternatively, we could sign the MPP five turns before we declare war and then lower the minimum length of the war to 15 turns.
                      We can agree to the MPP 10-15 turns before we actually declare war. The MPP lasts 20 turns and then it will either be renegotiated by the AI, or remain on a turn-by-turn basis. We do not have to agree to the renegotiation.

                      We should sign it long before we declare war. Get all of our allies involved in the war. Do not renegotiate the pact. Declare peace as our leisure afterwards.

                      The only risk is that one of our allies draws us into war, OR that Germany signs MPPs with England or other nations. We need to weigh that possibility as well.

                      --Togas
                      Greatest Moments in ISDG chat:"(12/02/2003) <notyoueither> the moon is blue. hell is cold. quote me, but i agree with ET. "
                      Member of the Mercenary Team in the Civ 4 Team Democracy Game.
                      Former Consul for the Apolyton C3C Intersite Tournament Team.
                      Heir to the lost throne of Spain of the Roleplay Team in the PTW Democracy Multiplayer Team Game.

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                      • #13
                        The risks of signing an MPP ahead of time are too great. IMHO we should sign the treaty the same turn that we declare war and bite the bullet on war weariness. With 8 luxuries and cities that don't grow beyond size 12, we'll only have to use entertainers near the end of the war and I'm sure we can handle it.
                        Hell, we might get lucky and the other pact members will "betray" us and sign peace with Germany before the pact ends. But then again, I've read somewhere that there's a bug in 1.21 and 1.29 that causes you to take a rep hit whenever a treaty you're involved in is broken, even if an AI has broken it.
                        "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
                        And the truth isn't what you want to see,
                        Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
                        - Phantom of the Opera

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                        • #14
                          I say sign MPP in advance, I see very little risk in going to war prematurely due to our ally.
                          :-p

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                          • #15
                            Shiber,

                            I'm glad someone brought this topic up

                            Personally, I tend to like using alliances more than MPPs, but I agree that MPPs would help better in terms of cost. Looking at the price of buying techs, Greece IS willing to give us something of a break on techbuys if we package it with an MPP, so it's worth thinking about.
                            Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
                            Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
                            7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

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