Announcement

**Panzer32** · November 10, 2002, 23:28

What I want to know, is why the slider was changed. I know that it was changed after purchasing Free Artistry, but for what purpose, I know not. Was there not a poll on this just a few turns ago, where the majority of people voted on the slider set at 40%??? Unless this is a very temporary situation, the government needs to start getting their act together before the AI attacks our cavalry with modern tanks!!!

**adaMada** · November 10, 2002, 23:37

Panzer,
That was a decision made in the chat. As Foreign Ministry Rep, and considering we would have had Free Artistry in three turns, I was originally in favor of waiting until we researched Free Artistry, since I didn't see the point of having it three turns earlier when we would be paying 200 gold for it. The other people there correctly pointed out that we could buy it and then make twice as much money back in less time by temporarially eliminating Science spending. I said that this would clearly be acceptable to me if people felt that changing the Science Slider was legal, and then had to leave. I have no opinion on the issue of the Science Slider being changed back -- I considered the original change a profitable tradeoff that (as Foreign Ministry Rep) I had no problem with, but in general I try to avoid Science Discussions, since I have little skill in the area

.

-- adaMada

**E_T** · November 11, 2002, 00:38

We had changed it, to help recoop the money that we had used to purchase Free Artistry. We had first, also looked at getting Magnetism for the cheapest we could get and then trading it with Greece (who didn't have it) for Theory of Gravity, thereby trying to be within the limits that FAM Togas had set for tech trades. But Unfortunately, the overall price would have still been too high.
The decision was then made for FA.

During the next turn, I tried to get the slider changed back to 40%, but was voted down, if it had been, we'd most likely be able to set the slider to 50% now and have the tech in 4 turns, with a larger income.

E_T

**Arnelos** · November 11, 2002, 01:26

The decision to set the slider to 0% was made so that we could make ~300 gold to offset the 223 Gold cost of buying FA. Had we kept the science slider at 40%, we would not have had the funds to complete the approved rushes, upgrades, and embassies slated for the remainder of the chat. Had we failed to purchase FA, it would have taken us another 3 turns to research it and we would have lost money (net) compared to the plan we chose.

The slider was KEPT at 0% for one additional turn because:

1. The FP was not yet complete. Now that that FP is complete, science is A LOT more effective on our own.

2. The extra money made from the additional turn buffered our monetary reserve and it could be used to purchase Theory of Graviy or Magnetism in just such a deal as described by adaMada above.

3. The balance of opinion in the chat was clearly in favor of reducing the science slider to 0% for one additional turn until the construction of the FP.

Personally, and I'm the one who made the final call, I decided that the debate over where to place the science slider could be more finally decided once the FP was built and we had a clearer picture of how effective our own research would be with the reduced corruption.

------------------

Now...

Due to the construction of the FP, we can now (if E_T's calculation is correct) place the science slider at 60% and make it to Theory of Gravity or Magnetism in 4 turns AND make over 300 LPT in income.

I do not intend to do another chat until the issue of where to stick the science slider has been finalized and a tech has been chosen for research.

**E_T** · November 11, 2002, 01:36

Please post a poll, suggested 5 day, on this issue. This way, it will be official.

Please, also put a reminder, that as we progress towards the end of the research, that we can possibly tweek the % and gain more income, while keeping the TOC for the tech the same.

E_T

**Arnelos** · November 11, 2002, 01:51

Originally posted by E_T
Please post a poll, suggested 5 day, on this issue. This way, it will be official.

Please, also put a reminder, that as we progress towards the end of the research, that we can possibly tweek the % and gain more income, while keeping the TOC for the tech the same.

E_T

Doing the poll now, but it will be 3 days.

**Shiber** · November 11, 2002, 03:44

We are at least three techs behind (ToG, Mag and Nat.). To remedy this, I suggest that we leave the science slider at 0% while using the extra income to rush additional libraries and universities and buy our way through the tech tree.
Eventually we'll be even with the major players in techs and then we'll be able to start researching on our own. However, as long as we're so far behind in tech that it is futile to research on our own because it is cheaper to just buy the tech.

We should combine this course of action with preparations for a war against Greece and Germany, in any order we choose. This will weaken our opponents and allow us to bypass them in research eventually.

**E_T** · November 11, 2002, 03:50

The readyness for war is still mostlikely 20 turns away. If we go after one of the Big 4, we'll need to prepare to have 1-2 others join in against us.

E_T

**zeit** · November 11, 2002, 05:43

I suggest putting the sider on 60%, but buy the other tech from a non threatening Civ, like Rome. As it seems, buying each tech costs roughly half than buying, BUT that money we pay is used to:
1) upgrade knights to Cavalry
2) Rush units
3) buy allies in case we/they attack

So, if we would buy Techs, do so only from Rome, or Greece- for this time- these are tow civs we won't attack for now- Since Greece is too strong for my taste, and England is much more tempting.

The other tech should be researched- if our CP says he has the funds he needs for rushes, and Aggie's upgrades seem to be going well, some research couldn't hurt that much.

**E_T** · November 11, 2002, 06:12

We're doing well in the upgrade department. WE still have:
3 Spearmen
12 Pilkemen to upgrade
We currently have 23 Muskets with more being built

9 WC's and 2 Knights (elites that the SMC might be saving for a possible future GL). We have 17 Cavalry with more being built

We also have 2 Galleys and 1 Warrior that can be upgraded.

That's all for the current upgrade status. If we space them out to atleast 1 per turn, we will be doing good.

I only have one more Temple and 6 Courthouses that I'll be looking at rushing, but I'm flexible on the timing and they're in the new cities and still need to get to the point that I'll even consider rushing them. I like to use that money for throughput rushes, but I can go with that flow two and the Items will still get built, just not a quick as I'd like.

E_T

**Randolph** · November 11, 2002, 08:19

"0% (with 1 sci spec): 38 turns; +977 LPT"
"60%: 4 turns; +347LPT"

I see the argument that we're loosing out on about 1270L ((630lpt*4)-1250L) if we research the two techs. OTOH I do worry about giving the AI that much money, but we can't be behind in the industrial age, so I say buy the tech (preferably form two different Civs, to avoid giving one too much $$$). After that (+any industrial tech we can buy at a good rate) switch to 60%/4turns, implement the industrial science plan and burn the AI.

Industrial Science Plan (ISP):
Steam
Industrialization
(begin US to build up shields)
--> scientific method
Switch to (ToE)
Research RP while building ToE (Sanitation if there is time)
Get AT + electronics w/ToE
Build HD
(after building HD trade the now useless AT and Electronics to the AI for other line techs we don’t have, or LARGE cash sums (don’t sell um’ cheap))

On the other hand do we really need to buy our technology from that AI scum? Perhaps we should have some pride in our Apolytonian science program, our scientists are as good as any English or German scientists!

[edited to correct "-->"]

**Shiber** · November 11, 2002, 11:45

PEOPLE - look at the numbers!
It would cost us roughly 2,500 lytons to research Theory of Gravity on our own, or we could buy it from Greece for about 1,200 lytons. We can then take the remaining 1,300 lytons and invest them in libraries and universities!!
Why do you insist on wasting so much money?? Just because a few people panicked after the last turnchat it doesn't mean we have to throw money away.

**roadcage** · November 11, 2002, 13:00

Civ3 is a War game. Sometimes it is fought on the battle field and sometimes it is fought by other means. But make no mistake about this, it will be fought. We have the landmass, the population, and better tactics on our side. We are not yet ready primarily because of the ever shrinking jungle we started in continues to consume much of our efforts. The winning strategy is to keep more or less even even tech wise by whatever methods are available to us until such time as we can muster overwhelming research. The events of the last three turn chats should convince anyone willing to actually look at what happened to realize that we are not YET ready to go high research. Please be patient. Give Aggie and Togas another 20 turns or so and we WILL be unstopable.

I know that I come across as a warmonger, but I really am rather mild mannered. I just want to win the game.

roadcage

**Aggie** · November 11, 2002, 16:47

Listen to shiber and roadcage. The arguement was as I mentioned in the chat. Let me do the math.
Cost for TOG =1220
Cost for TOG by reducing slider for 4 turns to get TOG =
{970(current income at 0%)-347(income at 60%)}*4
= 2492.
2492>>>>>1220 so we waste 1272 gold if we move slider.
So my vote will be and will continue to be(until we are competitive on research) a 0% science rate.
Aggie

Announcement

Science slider

Science slider

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment