Science spending

[zeit]

We have been talking about researching our own tech for quite some time now, but still our science spending is ZERO.

This is outrageous!doitnow!:


as the costs of buying techs get higher and higher, and since we get a fat bonus of commere from the Republic, and we are deep into the construction of marketplaces in the major cities, the time has come to divert some funds towards research.

And the case of "we don't have enough libraries" is absurd, because we don't need those libraries- we might have as well spend all of our commerce on entertainment before we have enough marketplaces. the libraries only boost the research, but the bulk of it must come from governmental funding.

Let us spend at least 10% of our income on science, for a start, and after we finish with printing press increase it even further!

[propaganda]
Say yes for Research Funding, Say yes for a brighter Apolytonia!
[propaganda]

[Shiber]

We're currently researching with one scientist at Macross City, and we're researching at the minimum rate of one tech every 40 turns (IIRC we're roughly half through now). Raising the science rate to 10% won't get us Printing Press any faster. We'd have to raise the sci. slider to a lot more than that.
At this point when we have only one library (IIRC) and all the commerce that would go to science (except in the single city that has a library) produces one beaker per commerce it's not really worth it to spend on science. When we have more libraries I'd support raising the sci. slider, but not now when it won't benefit us at all.

[Donegeal]

Bah!

Unless we can research something in say 10-15 turns, it would be pointless to have the sci rate any higher then zero (as long as we have a specialist be a scientist). The benifits of the extra income are to important in till we have inproved our Infrastructure and Military.

[Kloreep]

I don't have the game open right now, but I don't think 10% would do much; certainly not more than the scientist we are currently using somewhere. We'd have to raise it to 50% or more to see much effect, I think.

And just because we can start heavy research without libraries doesn't mean we should. As we have been saying all along, our cities are underdeveloped. They aren't even using some of the tech we have right now. At this point, I think it would be better to keep funneling commerce into the treasury, so that we can rush some of the improvements that are still lacking. Once we have basic structures like marketplaces, libraries, and cathedrals, I bet we'll be able to pump it up to even higher than 50%. That'll be some pretty fast research; and our cities will be able to make use of that research.

Sure, it's annoying to fall behind; but I don't see how it would benefit us to catch up. The only tech available to us that we could make much use of is gunpowder, and as long as we can get to printing press before everyone else, that shouldn't be a problem.

[ThePlagueRat]

If you vote for me as Minister of Science,
I could perhaps gain influence to make our country
become the main technological centre in this world.

Only through extensive buildup in trade, and new culture/research projects, we can accomplish this. Then we can raise the science spending a bit.

[Thud]

Thank you Zeit. You see, it's not that Science is set at 0% as opposed to 10%. If it were to be switched it wouldn't improve science output. The problem is the self-defeating arguement: It's not worth raising the science spending until we have more libraries, and it's not worth building more libraries because science spending isn't high enough to be worthwhile.

I'm fighting a battle as MoS to make this arguement irrelvant. It's going to be a long and hard fight for future ministers, but it has to be done.

[Meshelic]

Until we are structured better and have the population and improvements to do so, we won't need to raise the science spending. Having a specialist or two work on research is way more economical for us at the time being.

[OPD]

I am against any research untill at least 1000ad.

We can probably reseach stuff in 9 or 10 turns if we put all our budget into it but we still need the money for other things atm. Also any techs we could research would be untradeable only when we can trade them away should we research them.

[E_T]

What we could expect with different Sci Rates

From 580 AD save
If we raise our science rate, here's the results:

20% or less: No Change
30%: 17 Turns (85 beakers/turn), Income: 88
40%: 13 Turns (111 Beakers/turn), Income: 64
50%: 10 Turns (152 B/t), Income: 25
60%: 9 Turns (173 B/t), Income: 7
70%: 8 Turns (199 B/t), Income: -17
80%: 7 Turns (229 B/t), Income: -45
90%: 6 Turns (259 B/t), Income: -72
100%: 5 Turns (284 B/t), Income: -95

E_T

[Meshelic]

Good chart ET, I think we all will agree that the wisest thing to do for science is to leave it be for now, and only when we have structured our economy and industry to be more productive should we raise the science rate.

[Arnelos]

Thud... I argue that the libraries should come before the science rate in this case...

So my argument is that we should use the current abundance of monetary income to help with those heavily needed libraries... then up the science rate as a consequence of the libraries augmenting its impact.

This solves the chicken & egg argument, as money -> libraries -> science

Pretty simple

The battleground, therefore, is the City Planner's area... and our obvious problem (and obvious advantage on the flipside) is that science is textbook "public good", one which is good for everyone to have, but for whom no-one (meaning no regional governor) is advantaged by providing. Regional governors are going to want to build cathedrals and aqueducts and that sort of thing before they'll want to build libraries because libraries (other than the culture) don't do much for city development. The CP, however, has something of a more empire-wide perspective on development priorities and is more likely to overrule regional governors to build libraries sooner...

Just some thoughts...

[Duddha]

Unless we can research something in say 10-15 turns, it would be pointless to have the sci rate any higher then zero (as long as we have a specialist be a scientist). The benifits of the extra income are to important in till we have inproved our Infrastructure and Military.

agreed

Thank you Zeit. You see, it's not that Science is set at 0% as opposed to 10%. If it were to be switched it wouldn't improve science output. The problem is the self-defeating arguement: It's not worth raising the science spending until we have more libraries, and it's not worth building more libraries because science spending isn't high enough to be worthwhile.

agreed

If you vote for me as Minister of Science,
I could perhaps gain influence to make our country
become the main technological centre in this world.

propoganda

Only through extensive buildup in trade, and new culture/research projects, we can accomplish this. Then we can raise the science spending a bit.

Foolish Culture Club ideas

[MrWhereItsAt]

Well said, Arnelos. Libraries are valuable not just for their science benefits, but don't forget the +3 Culture also. We can definitely aim for Libraries first.

I would hope that as a Republic our opportunities for science will expand rapidly, and soon enough it will be worth raising the rate. However, there could be a case for raising the rate even sooner. Perhaps this could be the first poll of the new Science Minister...?

[Vlad Antlerkov]

I'd support more research. Hopefully, we can take advantage of our GA to build some libraries (and universities), giving us some research capacity. (At 320%, we can get 88 gpt and a tech every 17 turns. Hopefully, libraries will increase that.)

BTW-- has anyone noticed that we're actually leading the known civs in culture (as of 570 AD)?

[Panzer32]

Thats because we have the most cities. Try dividing our total culture by the number of cities and that tells a different story. (Im not sure what, I'll get back on that one)