Do we want GA now

[Aggie]

We have come to decision time. Do we start a GA next during the american war or wait until the next chnace for war in about 20 turns. I believ after much consideration putting off the GA another 20 turns till the next war. This would give us time to build the improvements that will make are golden age truly golden. However I do also understand the people who say we can use the Ga to build these improvements so lets here it.
Aggie

[MrWhereItsAt]

I would certainly prefer the latter - delay the GA.

We have in our power the ability to more or less control when our GA is, and there's no point wasting it on a civilization full of war-worn (or war-torn) jungle cities. What the hell will the diseased citizens of Apolytonia care for a Golden Age? We must clear jungle, build Temples, Marketplaces and Libraries before any GA!

Let's maximise the GA impact, not minimise it.

[ruby_maser]

GA

sounds like we are going to need a poll but I say delay it. I do think we should declare war with america immediately though, and use the war chariots on the american border as way to block the aztec advance/nudge them to the aside.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

DELAY

[Shiber]

It seems like there's not much choice. We are short of money to make all the necessary upgrades and reach our golden age prepared. I say delay it until the next war (to be fought against France or the Aztecs, it seems).
Btw, what's our status with the switch to Republic? We are fully prepared for a switch immediately after the American campaign, except for Uber Isle where we still have to rush temples and then still have to turn the 3rd citizen into a specialist after the switch. IMHO we should purchase temples in Uber Isle during this turnchat to be prepared to switch to Republic at the beginning of the next turnchat.

[joncnunn]

We need the Golden Age now, otherwise, Repubilc costs more money in maintenance and luxaries than it brings in which keeps our science research non-existant. (The poll results of Republic was overwhelmingly in favor.)

To reliably have a Golden Age 20 turns from now requires us to WIN a battle with a War Chariot then.

Some civs already have Gun Powder, more will have it 20 turns from now, which will make it much more difficult to acheive and we'd have fewer WCs to upgrade to Knights once it's achieved.

[Shiber]

If we switch to Republic now we won't have to raise the lux slider, except to keep Uber Isle functioning. There are other ways to keep those towns out of disorder though, such as rushing temples in all of them and keeping the population below 3 while working on a road to connect all of the towns so that once we get Astronomy and build a harbor on Uber Isle we'll be able to support bigger populations.

[Togas]

Delay it???

Until when? Whenever we feel like it? When are we ever going to feel that our nation is "ready" for a GA? There's always going to be one more thing to build or wait for.

To have a GA, we need to be in a war, we need to attack someone with our lousey attack 2 WCs and we need to win. It's not like we can just click on a button on our advisor screen and have a GA. When the GA occurs we will be in the midst of a war with someone. Are the people going to approve going to war in the future when the predestined moment of "GA perfection" is before us?

We need to be in a short war, like this American clean-up, that we can control and very quickly end. After America is gone, all we have is France, and they may not be so easily beaten by our WCs. They may not also sue for peace quite as quickly, giving us several turns of War Weariness that will hinder our GA production.

Or we can wait until a larger nation invades us and try to beat them off with WCs and spring a GA. But who knows how long such a defensive war will last. Certainly not as quick and easy as the American clean-up.

We need production. We need to get our FP and Palace built yesterday, not around 1500AD. A GA gives us rapid production and will allow us to get these critical buildings up ASAP. It also allows us rapidly catch up to the rest of the world.

I'd rather see us catch up now before we're attacked by Cavalry than at some distant point in the future where we go to GA out of necessity to keep our nation from being pummeled by a superior military power.

YES we want GA now. We need a GA now.

--Togas

[WhiteBandit]

I concur with Togas

I also believe we need a GA now. We are ready to take advantage of it, and with a GA, we will be able to build our temples, marketplaces, and cathedrals faster.

Our War Chariots aren't going to be effective much longer, it is probably best to take advantage of the situation now while they at least still have a chance. We're getting 130+ LPT at the moment, a GA with substantially increase that amount, what better way to increase our funds, and increase the production output of our cities?

[joncnunn]

I think as many entertainers as needed on Uber Island in leiu of luxaries as an emergency messure until Temples are built is much more economicy feasible.

Hum, could we have an update on Net Revenue on Repubilc [without golden age] vs Monarchy as it stands now? Assume luxaries at 0%. Entertainers hired on Uber Island where needed, Science unchanged.

[Robber Baron]

Togas's arguement sounds pretty compelling. While I would hope we can take a turn or two to line up minimally useful happiness infrastructure (courthouses, temples), a Golden Age near-term would greatly accelerate the construction of a new palace, the Forbidden Palace, and (in other cities) cathedrals and marketplaces -- while hopefully avoiding attack from a rival civ.

[edit: another precondition would be switching to republic]

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by Togas
Delay it???

Until when? Whenever we feel like it? When are we ever going to feel that our nation is "ready" for a GA? There's always going to be one more thing to build or wait for.

To have a GA, we need to be in a war, we need to attack someone with our lousey attack 2 WCs and we need to win. It's not like we can just click on a button on our advisor screen and have a GA. When the GA occurs we will be in the midst of a war with someone. Are the people going to approve going to war in the future when the predestined moment of "GA perfection" is before us?

We need to be in a short war, like this American clean-up, that we can control and very quickly end. After America is gone, all we have is France, and they may not be so easily beaten by our WCs. They may not also sue for peace quite as quickly, giving us several turns of War Weariness that will hinder our GA production.

Or we can wait until a larger nation invades us and try to beat them off with WCs and spring a GA. But who knows how long such a defensive war will last. Certainly not as quick and easy as the American clean-up.

We need production. We need to get our FP and Palace built yesterday, not around 1500AD. A GA gives us rapid production and will allow us to get these critical buildings up ASAP. It also allows us rapidly catch up to the rest of the world.

I'd rather see us catch up now before we're attacked by Cavalry than at some distant point in the future where we go to GA out of necessity to keep our nation from being pummeled by a superior military power.

YES we want GA now. We need a GA now.

--Togas

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[joncnunn]

Basically what I'm now thinking is should we start the American annexation with the Golden Age or close it down with a Golden Age as a matter of fine-tuning.

If it's right now a net loss in gold to switch to Republic without Golden Age, we should start the American annexation with the Golden Age.

But if it's a net postive in gold to switch to Republic without Golden Age, we should end the American annexation with the Golden Age.

[wervdon]

I dont think the viability of the war chariot in the future has any bearing on the decision. We will be able to get it from wonders.

If captured wonders count, then chances are our pyramids will cause a golden age next time we build any wonder. I've heard someone say this is the case with captured wonders, but I haven't confirmed it. Possibly, it'll count next time we build a industrious or religious wonder.

If the captured pyramids count, then we will still get one if we build the hoover dam, we built the sistine which is religious. If not hoover, the manhattan is also industrious, and Ive never failed to be the first to build it in a game that I remember.

In short, Im not worried about if we'll get a golden age. We're setup very well to get one in the industrial age with the hoover dam, possibly sooner if the pyramids cause one as soon as we build our next wonder like ive heard some say they will.

So basically, we don't _have_ to do it now to get one. The opportunity will not go away. So the question is do we want one now? Id say just read Mr. WhereItsAt's post, he said it best

[joncnunn]

Wervdon, the AI gets 20% off prices of everything, includinging Great Wonders.

If captured wonders count, we have a chance of getting a Golden Age if we get a Great Leader at any time.

If they don't, we have to get the Great Leader at the right time for Hoover Dam or Manhatten Project.

2 or 3 AI civs or ahead of us on reserach, they have a big advantage on naturally building the wonders, especally because the "losers" are now being bumbed to the next one.

I don't see us ever being in a position to constinatly be the first to any tech if we don't start a Golden Age before an AI enters the Industrial Ages.

Without the Golden Age by the time we have Market Places + Libaries in all our core cities, the AI has Banks + Universities in all of their core cities.

Thud is especally correct about it being a golden age speeding up the construction of the Forbidden Palace.