VP campaign thread

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by adaMada

UnOrthO's compiled orders ruled. They made things a lot easier. It was my understanding that MWIA loved them too, and I liked how it seemed to speed turnchats up (though I bet it made it harder for those who wanted to play along, it was a lot easier for me personally that way). As to why they're not being done this term -- no one seems to have the time. Just FYI, Arnelos -- I think you'll probably find them useful as well if you see them in action for a bit.

Ok, I'd highly appreciate getting a template of the format Unortho used once-upon-a-time... that way I can look it over and see what I might want to do with it. I can understand how time could be a leading factor in why it isn't currently being used... I have more time than most, so it's possible I can do this... but I'll want to look it over and see if there's any way I can alter it before I know for sure what I'd want to do. Thanks.

*snip*

Can't really comment on that, since I'm still not sure that it's a tactic in this case. It might have these effects -- again, I've never thought about it this way -- but I don't think it's intended too, or even has had these effects -- Apoc toned down the VP role when he took the job, and had no trouble. If UnOrthO wants to expand the VP's responsibliities for his term then I think that's fine -- it's his way of taking on the VP role, which doesn't have much in it by the CoL, and expanding upon it.

The irony here is that if UnOrthOdOx were actually running for the office rather than attempting to induce me into making additional promises regarding my own campaign for the office, it would be easier to dismiss this style as merely his natural method of running for office w/o any cold calculating behind it - a style which I have typically shared myself... Indeed, my use of the term "tactic" was admittedly, in part, out of the knowledge that "tactic" has more connotative punch than "style", though either could be used in the absense of knowledge of intent... Admittedly, it might have been more fair to use the term "style" than "tactic" because it wasn't apparent that what was being done was due to cold calculation rather than inherent tendency/style/personality... but in a competitive election, there's an understandable tendency to term things in connotatively "punchy" ways. As the clique goes, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

Oddly, the fact that UnOrthOdOx wasn't actually running for the office makes it more apparent that what he was doing was being done to elicit additional promises and material from myself... exactly as I asserted. The irony centers on the fact that I didn't (and couldn't) know this while he was doing it, but I portrayed it as though it was a calculated move anyhow...

I was just trying to skewer my opponent on the weakest point of his otherwise strong argument and I chose to word my attack in provocative terms... it was really luck that part of the connotation might actually have been more accurate than I could have possibly known for sure. That said, I still assert that I was hitting his argument at its verifyable weakpoint - that it was straying away from the primary responsibilities of VP to various potential "auxilliary responsibilities" - an entirely fair criticism. If he had actually been running (as I had to believe he was), I was completely within my rights to point out that he seemed to be avoiding (purposely or otherwise) the core issues in favor of auxiliary ones.

I understand your arguement, but would have to disagree in this case. To be honest, the VP job description just doesn't give him much to do (except in emergencies). The VP, if he just does what the CoL says, is a meaningless position with an active president. The way that some Vice Presidents have been able to counter that is by taking on other roles around the forum as part of their VP job, which I think is a fine practice, and haven't seen it hurting any canidates yet.

As I argued, being Vice President should not prevent someone from being an active Apolytonian citizen. The central point of my argument, however, is that

The central point of my argument is that while many VPs have gone well beyond the role of VP while they were VP, what they were doing beyond the role was not then part of the VP role because the VP was doing it. Not all innovations started by the person in the office of Vice President at the time of the innovoation are therefore "Vice Presidential innovoations"... they are rather the VP continuing to act as an active citizen in Apolytonia, as they should. The argument I made, and still assert, is that anyone could have done many of these things or could continue them in the future... there's nothing special about being Vice President that lets them suggest most of those things and prevents others from doing so. Your own work on the directory should be a case in point

As for me, I fully intend to continue to be an active citizen when I am Vice President, but I don't look at my continued active service as a citizen to be part of my role as VP. This might end up being little more than a difference in how Unortho or I define exactly the same workload and therefore an entirely esoteric argument, but then again it might still be important to define it that way.... as I argued, I don't want to give people the impression that everything I do while I am VP is therefore what I'm doing as VP. To me, at least, that's an important distinction to create (though others are welcome to argue this is merely definitional... a rather pointless difference).


* huge snipping... (the above argument covers your responses to whole lot of what follows...)

Actually, I'd say most of UnOrthO's Vice Presidental innovations do further this goal. His chat order compilation assists the President; though it is not explicitly stated, his directory and CoL rewriting project would assist the people, who (in my opinion) he does serve (though not by his job description).

I'd snip this as well, but it's exactly what I'm trying to point out... Notice how you refer to things as "Vice Presidential innovotions" which I assume includes things that are no longer being handled by the Vice President. They are UnOrthOdOx's innovations, yes, but they are not therefore automatically "Vice Presidential". I'll remain an active citizen when I'm VP, but a lot of what I might suggest to change (even if based upon my experience as VP) may not always be fair to characterize as "Vice Presidential".... as I've said, this entire difference in interpretation could be viewed as entirely pointless, but anyone thinking so can just skip reading all of this (and they probably did that a long time ago ).

I'd be willing to see some more structure in turnchats, though I think it's generally not needed -- we've seen one or two that have really needed it, but many that haven't.

Having said that, by your strict definition of what falls under the VP's job and what doesn't, wouldn't this be a doesn't? The CoL doesn't require that the VP innovate in that field... of course, I'm happy that it's getting discussion, and I want a VP that will be innovative and try new things, but I thought I'd point what I consider an inconsistancy out.

I was thinking of exactly that issue when I wrote it, actually It's a suggestion based upon my experience as a citizen and one I could very well suggest now rather than having to run for VP. To be fair, I'm not even the source of the suggestion, it's one I picked up from other people at the recent turnchats. I suppose the critical difference is that the two executives are in the unique position to implement changes to protocol for the turnchats... I could create a newbie FAQ as a citizen, Unortho could help with the directory as a citizen, or help with the CoL as a citizen... but I can only directly implement turnchat protocols if I'm ever in charge of a turnchat Even that, however, is really a presidential responsibility rather than a VP one... so, in that regard, my status is (or at least should be) little different from any citizen in that I'd simply be making suggestions to the president. So your criticism is fair enough

* a lot of snipping (stuff you agree with me on)

I like the idea of having the VP coordinate between ministers -- I've always felt it was an executive power, and considered proposing that the Con Con explicitly write it into the CoL (not saying that the Con Con has or hasn't, just saying I considered proposing it before the Con Con had gotten started ). I'd really like to see the VP canidate take an active role in this area.

Yeah, this is actually something that I'd have to discuss more with whomever becomes Prez... Coordinating with the ministers should be something of a team project for both Prez and VP (and let us not forget the entire cabinet, too). Once we have a cabinet, we can start talking as a cabinet more indepth about stuff like this. That said, I'll need to talk most with the Prez about it.

...I do respectfully disagree with Arnelos's analysis and thoughts on what are potential jobs appropriate for the VP and what aren't. We may have to agree to disagree on this issue, and who knows -- maybe I'll eventually be brought around to your way of thinking, or you'll come to mine.

-- adaMada

As I've argued, a lot of the "disagreement" is definitional, not substantive. That said, however, under my definition a VP could perform strictly the reponsibilities laid out under the CoL and still be said to have "done the job". That said, I also believe the VP should ideally be an active citizen, something I am fully willing and able to do. People like active citizens as their officers, I just happen to believe that the specific nature of their activity (as long as it exists) beyond the job description is pertinent to the job description itself. Technically, even someone who did nothing beyond the job description would still be "doing the job" as long as they met at least that, but that's a far cry from me. Rather, I'm a very active citizen arguing that my own high activity level is irrelevant to the job description - which, frankly, it is.

I think that basically wraps up much of this thread... you are probably the only (or one of the only) people still reading at this point and I'm VERY THANKFUL that you're still doing so... however, I honestly think this thread has hit the absolute limit of its lifespan...

We can continue discussing stuff like this, but we should do it in other threads if we really wany anyone to bother reading it... a larger portion of the people here likely aren't reading anything in this thread because...
well, because it's in this thread

[WhiteBandit]

Wow.

Too bad Unortho is leaving, this was shaping up to be quite an exciting race! Arnelos will make a fine VP for whomever wins the election! (Cough)

Arnelos, how do you plan to work with the President? Do you plan to wait until asked to do something, or will you actively try to coordinate with the President and schedule turn chats on your own as well?

[Arnelos]

I'm obviously going to have to clarify that last post, as it has been interpreted as an insult to Unortho...

First, I honestly apologize if anyone feels it was insulting... it was not intended as such.
I can't control how everyone interprets everythingI say or write and much of what anyone says or writes is open to multiple interpretations, but I feel an obligation to apologize and clarify to anyone who seems to have read it in a particularly different way than intended.

With this latest post, I was attempting to point out exactly what I was thanking Unortho for... if the wording is seen as insulting, I honestly apologize. If Unortho hadn't entered the race with the intent to force me to think more critically about my own candidacy, whether I really should be running for it, and force me to elaborate what I might do, I would not be as prepared as I am for the office. That is exactly what I was thanking Unortho for...

As I see it, getting me to "elicit promises" was precisely what I was thanking him for... I'm sorry if I worded that wrong. I wouldn't be a better candidate if he hadn't done that... it's not meant to insult him at all... I'm really sorry if anyone feels that way.

I did not mean to portray Unortho as a villain at all, but rather as someone who was working to force me to clarify my own position... I thought that was what I was saying and how people would read it... but obviously that's not how some read it, so my apologies again.

I honestly believe (even worded the way I worded it) that what Unortho was doing was not even remotely "villainous", but rather the height of civic responsibility... that he might have used deception (running in the race w/o actually intending to run in the race) to do this is comendable in this case, not wrong... My obvious mistake was to assume that others would read my attempt to express that the same way I read it. I thought that's what I was saying... I'm really sorry if it didn't come out that way...

I would ask that people please try to understand that it was not my intention to insult Unortho with this latest post...

[DAVOUT]

Arnelos,

I can assure you that an attentive reading of this thread did not let me think anything like that. This is probably an ultimate expression of the shadow culture you have already met.

Business discussions shoud never be taken personally.