Are boats for exploration under SMC or under MoIE

[Meshelic]

I have commmented many times on the need for a Secretary of the Navy or Admiral of the Navy (etc), while at this time it is not a DIRE situation that needs to be solved, it should be cleared up soon once the Navy becomes more of a seperate entity from the military and IE.

[zeit]

Aggie, didn't you announce you're creating a position of a 'DISCO duck' to act as the one in charge of creating and supervising the naval exploration fleet. I feel this is a good decision and the SMC has the authority to command such an operation.
To be short i think the exploration operation should be under the SMC's superviosion.

[GhengisFarb™]

Actually I think the MoIE should fall under both the CP and the SMC and be somewhat autonomous. They should be in charge of exploring (with units assigned by the SMC) and founding cities (settlers should NEVER be under the authority of the SMC) and planning the cities production until they reach size 3. At that point the cities would be reassigned to the CP. This way we have one office responsible for locating, founding, and starting new cities.

The SMC could concentrate on assesing foreign military threats and devising plans to defeat them and the CP could concentrate on the established empire.

We currently have given the CP and especially the SMC far too many powers that do not pertain to one another making it hard to find someone who can excel at the entire job. We have been fortunate with our last two candidates but it have such wide ranging responsibilites decreases the number of qualified individuals and reduces the number of interesting jobs open to interested citizens.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Actually I think the MoIE should fall under both the CP and the SMC and be somewhat autonomous. They should be in charge of exploring (with units assigned by the SMC) and founding cities (settlers should NEVER be under the authority of the SMC) and planning the cities production until they reach size 3. At that point the cities would be reassigned to the CP. This way we have one office responsible for locating, founding, and starting new cities.

The SMC could concentrate on assesing foreign military threats and devising plans to defeat them and the CP could concentrate on the established empire.

We currently have given the CP and especially the SMC far too many powers that do not pertain to one another making it hard to find someone who can excel at the entire job. We have been fortunate with our last two candidates but it have such wide ranging responsibilites decreases the number of qualified individuals and reduces the number of interesting jobs open to interested citizens.

Well... I'm finding this has been happening a lot lately, but I gotta agree with GhengisFarb on this one, he's presented a convincing argument. It also goes well with my own confusion about where to stick my own conceptual "Colonial Office" (under Foreign or Military, never mind CP as well). It would make sense to leave this "Colonial Office" as an independent agency which exists to some extent under the influence of the SMC, the City Planner, and the Foreign Ministry (concerning internaction with foreign civs while performing colonial duties). This is also in line with the historical system I'm using as a model for what would make sense: colonial offices typically existed somewhat seperate from other ministries, yet drew upon the resources of several ministries and thus were dependent upon cooperation with them.

It's a workable model and my own attempts to securely place this "Colonial Office" (or "Ministry of Imperial Expansion") under a single ministry may not be what we need to go for here.

Good job for pointing this out, GhengisFarb

EDIT: I also like GhengisFarb's suggestion of giving the MIE/Colonial Office the power to not only form new cities, but administer them until they reach population of 3 (I'd add any cities captured in foreign territory rather than having the SMC administer them - not sure when they should be handed over to the City Planner). With naval vessels and units dedicated specifically to exploration also under the MIE/Colonial Office, this would certainly make sense for this remaining an important part of Apolytonia (exploration, expansion, and initial/colonial administration) into the future. It also, as GhengisFarb points out, relieves the City Planner from dealing with newly established colonies and dependencies and relieves the SMC from dealing with exploration. My suggestion is that it might also alleviate the SMC's need to administer captured cities under resistence or in the early stages of control (those this would be an area of SMC-MIE cooperation).

[Aggie]

This does bring another issue up(the SMC controlling captured cities at first). First of all this is a policy that should continue. The smc needs absolute power of these cites to provide for there defense. I actually would like these cities to stay under the SMC until
1) The front is advanced past them
2) The war ends
One item that I am upset about, arbela was not starved as ORDERED. I had standing orders for this too happen to all cities taken. I realize there is a plan to put the cities in WLTK day but I think this should have been discussed. I have decided that boats will remain under smc however I will consult with the IE and will probably have built the exploration boats and assign them to the IE, i might retain a veto power for the smc. I do this not for myself but so the SMC can do what is best for the nation. For the record with our current administration, it would be perfectly ok for the MoIE to run the exploration program without having to answer to the SMC, I am looking to the future and we don't know who will be the IE or SMC. I am also currious to see how the new COL will streamline the government it could be that they will put IE under SMC legally which would solve this problem. Also since the main job of IE will soon be explorations, maybe we can rename it Imperial exploration instead of imperial expansion. Also for the future I propose that ALL branches of the military will answer to the SMC, but will have deputies in charge of them(though SMC will have the final say). Due to the uncertainties I will delay the creation of the"Disco" until I see how all the government will be organized, ie I don't want to creat a position only to have the new col obsolete that position.
Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aggie
This does bring another issue up(the SMC controlling captured cities at first). First of all this is a policy that should continue. The smc needs absolute power of these cites to provide for there defense. I actually would like these cities to stay under the SMC until
1) The front is advanced past them
2) The war ends
One item that I am upset about, arbela was not starved as ORDERED. I had standing orders for this too happen to all cities taken. I realize there is a plan to put the cities in WLTK day but I think this should have been discussed. I have decided that boats will remain under smc however I will consult with the IE and will probably have built the exploration boats and assign them to the IE, i might retain a veto power for the smc. I do this not for myself but so the SMC can do what is best for the nation. For the record with our current administration, it would be perfectly ok for the MoIE to run the exploration program without having to answer to the SMC, I am looking to the future and we don't know who will be the IE or SMC. I am also currious to see how the new COL will streamline the government it could be that they will put IE under SMC legally which would solve this problem. Also since the main job of IE will soon be explorations, maybe we can rename it Imperial exploration instead of imperial expansion. Also for the future I propose that ALL branches of the military will answer to the SMC, but will have deputies in charge of them(though SMC will have the final say). Due to the uncertainties I will delay the creation of the"Disco" until I see how all the government will be organized, ie I don't want to creat a position only to have the new col obsolete that position.
Aggie

My suggestions were for organizational definitions not necessarily based on current office holders. I feel the SMC has control over too many different arenas. I do agree that conquered territories should no go under IE as they may be end up being razed or prone to culture flip. The SMC are an appointed Militarty Governor would make more sense to me.

I would rather see several positions of focalized power than one or two pseudo presidents (which is where I see the SMC heading).

[Arnelos]

Well, Aggie seems to be in favor of my original suggestion to solve the problem by simply making the IE subordinate to the SMC... then again, I still think GhengisFarb's argument that IE could retain its automony, but be answerable to both the City Planner and the SMC is another possibility...

This certainly needs more discussion and part of the problem here is that we don't really know for sure how the Con Con is going to change the whole system, thus affecting what we would think the best changes for the IE are...

Perhaps it would help if someone from the Con Con would like to comment on this issue and let us know the Con Con will take it into account (or already has)... Thanks

[Panag]

Originally posted by UberKruX
according to what the rules i laid down, all boats start under control of the SMC and can be comissioned to other offices for use.

what you people let the DIA do to my rules, i don't know

hi ,

UBER , a couple should be given out to explore , but all ships should in the end fall under military rule , and in case there is war or an other emergency (example the banana fields are dry , or the export of them comes in danger) then the military should be able to take over all the ships that are being used by other government offices (who dont do anything usefull with them anyway)

ships are there to transport troops not to study what fish is in the ocean

but , about what ships are we talking , there is no fleet , .........

so , before we talk about the use , lets build a fleet

have a nice day

[Meshelic]

When can an amendment be created so we can all vote on this? Especially after this election, I believe it'll be during this term many of these questions will need answering.

[Arnelos]

I'm still wondering when the Con Con is going to notice I asked that question up there (in bold, in italics, mentioning the Con Con by name....).

The reason is that it's likely the Con Con already has plans to do some constitutional changes regarding the MoIE and SMC (not to mention half a dozen other positions), so it would be good to know what on earth they're up to before creating reforms of our own that are likely to just get flushed down the toilet.

So if anyone from the Con Con is still reading this thread, would you please comment on this issue. Thanks