City Council: Libraries vs Markets

[E_T]

Initial Size limits should dictate what we should build. If a city can only grow to size 6 without an Aquaduct, then Librairies then Marketplaces first. If a city is on a river, Marketplace then Library. With enough Luxuries and marketplaces, you don't need the Cathedrals until size 7-9. Initial Science & Money are the most important if we want to be a dominate society.

Courthouses aren't needed except for the following reasons:
1) If a city is 15-18 or greater distance from Palace/FP, should have first.
2) 10-12 to 15-18, only need after both Marketplace/Libraries are both present.
3) below 10-12, Only after University/Bank is completed
4) Capital, just before or after building Factory (more for combatting waste than corruption). Or gust before moving the Palace.
These also depend on what the growth/production capabilities of a city, so this isn't a rigid rule of thumb, just a guideline.

E_T

[zeit]

Basicl, what E_T suggests is a more detailed and city-tailored program, and i think that's just what we need, where we have great commerce potential and we also need the extra happiness from luxuries, we kill two birds with one stone when building a marketplace, and IMO we only need a courthouse in the badly corrupted cities, as the commercial potential and happiness effect of the marketplace in the other cities exceeds the benefits of the courthouse.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by E_T
With enough Luxuries and marketplaces, you don't need the Cathedrals until size 7-9.
E_T

True, perhaps (though I'd set the threshold at 5-6). But at those more populous levels, the impact of Sistine'd cathedrals is dramatic. Compare Here It is (no cathedral, 7 population, 4 happy, 3 unhappy) with Macross (cathedral, 8 pop., 4 happy, 4 content, roughly equidistant from capital).

Originally posted by E_T
Initial Science & Money are the most important if we want to be a dominate society.
E_T

Again, science is not a consideration for us right now. And WLTK is a great way to cut down on corruption which will make our cities better earners. Meanwhile, our cultural status will grow.

[Robber Baron]

Plus (sorry about the double post), cathedrals are significantly cheaper than equivalent science or commerce improvements (because we're religious). More bang for the buck.

[Donegeal]

I do not think we should split our production between Marketplaces and Libraries. We should build either or to start with and not make it city specific. If some have Libraries and some marketplaces, then we loose what ever advantage we get from a slider change as increased tax doesn't effect the cites with libraries and increased sci doesn't help cities with markets.

I do, however that we should build culture improvements on border cities that we want to flip other cities with. In these cities we should build cathederals (big cult and happy).

IMHO it should be
Marketplace, Library, University, Cathedral, Bank
in every city.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by donegeal
I do not think we should split our production between Marketplaces and Libraries. We should build either or to start with and not make it city specific. If some have Libraries and some marketplaces, then we loose what ever advantage we get from a slider change as increased tax doesn't effect the cites with libraries and increased sci doesn't help cities with markets.

Excellent point, donegeal. If we try to straddle, we miss the opportunity to optimize a particular strategy.

Originally posted by donegeal
IMHO it should be
Marketplace, Library, University, Cathedral, Bank
in every city.

I'd put Cathedral before library, at least. (With our slider set so low on science ..... well, by now I'm sounding reptitive.)

[edit: I messed up the quote thing.]

[XOR]

Both Marketplaces and Libraries are a MUST in every single city.

Marketplaces are of extreme importance because they boost our income and give extra happyness. Libraries are cheap and give a very powerfull culutural and science boost. It's Courthouses the ones we can ignore in cities where corruption loss in not enough to care about. Both Marketplaces and Libraries are Trade-fed improvements, so every city that is good for one is also good for the other. If a city isnt good for any of the two, it still needs them both.

Marketplaces should go before than Libraries because they help making other productions faster. So if we build marketplaces in every city and then libraries in every city we will finish the construction of both faster if we start with the marketplace first than if we start with the libraries first. This is because the marketplaces give a happyness bonus, alowing more citizens to work without the need of entertainers AND because it generates extra income that can be used to rush build the libraries and have our cities ready to build more military units sooner.

My suggestion of queue:
Courthouse (selective) -> Marketplace -> Aqueduct -> Library ->Cathedral.

In every city, and wait (ie. war) until banking to make a break (ie. 20 turn peace) to build banks in every city and universities in cities with low corruption.

This queue is ordered/sorted especially to finish the full list as fast as possible.

[Zero]

When do we expect to research our own tech? Its abit early to decide this but industrial age would be approaching us soon and we want to start off the lead so that we can enjoy technological superiority with units.

[XOR]

Originally posted by Calc II
When do we expect to research our own tech? Its abit early to decide this but industrial age would be approaching us soon and we want to start off the lead so that we can enjoy technological superiority with units.

We can research our own tech once our cities are properly developed. In any case, we need a whole lot more cities than the AI because the AI can research things faster. In order for us to make a discovery we need to spend 125% the amount of sci of what the AI has to spend, if we discover it first we pay the full price and the AI gets it even cheaper.

The higher the difficulty level the bigger the AI's "builder" bonus. The only thing were we play on even terms is combat.

[Torkkeli]

Originally posted by donegeal
I do not think we should split our production between Marketplaces and Libraries. We should build either or to start with and not make it city specific. If some have Libraries and some marketplaces, then we loose what ever advantage we get from a slider change as increased tax doesn't effect the cites with libraries and increased sci doesn't help cities with markets.

Good point.
But this is why I never use such a strategy. The cities are always in different stages of building no matter what you do. I prefer to develop the cities individually. This way the beakers and cash come from the cities which have already been developed and are near the capitol. So I don't have to think about if I set this slider here what will it do....

But this strategy is based on a minimal war strategy. I don't go banging everybody else right from the start but rely on culture and maybe, when neccessary, on the sword.

But hey, I'm a builder and proud of it!

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by XOR
Libraries are cheap and give a very powerfull culutural and science boost.

The science "boost" is minimal, given our low rate of research on the slider. (Down the road that will probably change, but for now it's a wasted build, with not insignificant upkeep costs.)
Cathedrals give us the culture, increase happiness (a lot, with the Chapel), and are substantially cheaper for us to build.

[zeit]

The discussion here is, Marketplaces Vs. Libraries, not Libraries against Cathedrals, and indeed, the sceince boost of libraries is minimal right now, and a better short term investment . We need to invest in the shorter term- when we can maximinze the bonus trade from the Republic and the beneifts of GA, which will probably occur soon enough- in the american annexation (about 4-8 turns), so building marketplace in the less corrupt and large cities, like Gaia (4gpt), and BHQ (2gpt) for example is of outmost importance and benefit, as these cities will grow quickly (are on river tiles) and provide us with greater income in the future, and also 4 extra happy faces (after we get the persian spice). This extra gold can be used to rush culture buildings and courthouses in border cities.
As for the culture buildings, Cathedral is my favorite, it's affect is awsome and is relatively cheap, and will probably help us get plenty of WLTK to fight waste in those far off cities.

[Thud]

Solution: Build both, build 'em all, build 'em now!

Primary Concerns: Courthouses, Marketplaces
Secondary Concerns: Libraries, Cathedrals, Universities
Tertiary Concerns: Banks
Not at all Concerns: Military Buildup

[realpolitic]

Implementing Science Goals

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
As we start completing the universities we shoudl start edging the slider to a higher concentration on science and make the bulk of out gold from selling science.

In my games I have science maxed out on the minumum # of turns to completion, usually 4 turns at 40 to 60% science rate. I always get the techs first and keep the AI civs broke by selling my tech to all of them.

We're halfway through the tech tree when are we going use the science slider? There are cities that are going to be corrupt enough to need a WLTKD to fight corruption, even after the Palace & FP are built. In those cities, we build courthouses and marketplaces first. So we can raise the science slider, we should build libraries. According to the poll and thread at:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65452

You want ToE to get Hoover Dam, ToE is not many techs away, so we will need to raise the science rate soon.
like GhengisFarb, I've also used tech selling effectively,every tech we get first our sales will help us raise the science slider, until we get one every 4 turns. Then we can eigher stop selling them and coast, or rush build some corruption fighters and factories.

[joncnunn]

RealPoltic, IMHO, the only way we could be the first in the world to even a low AI priotiry tech like Democracy will be to raise the science rate as soon as Printing Press is discovered.