City Council: Libraries vs Markets

[UnOrthOdOx]

I started this in large part due to the discussion I have seen.

First we must address what cities produce the most Commerce:


As posted by GhengisFarb:

1) Ghengistown - 18 tiles are river tiles (shares 2 with Timeline)

2) Macross City - 17 tiles are river tiles (shares 4 with Rheims)

3) Timeline - 16 tiles are river tiles (shares 2 with Ghengistown)

4) City on a Hill - 16 tiles are river tiles, many hill and mountain tiles

5) Rheims - 16 tiles are river tiles (shares 4 with Macross City)

6) Gaia - 11 tiles are river tiles, several dyes

7) Del Monte - 11 tiles are river tiles

---

Next is the issue of Libraries vs Markets in these cities:
As posted by Shiber:

City A produces 20 commerce. The slider is at 10% science, 90% economy. 2 commerce are directed to science and produce 2 beakers. Income from the city is 18 gold.
After building a library, City A still produces 20 commerce but the 2 commerce that are directed to science produce 3 beakers.
If we build a marketplace instead, City A will give us an income of 27 gold and a science output of 2. If we change the sliders to 40% science, 60% economy our income from City A will return to 18 gold but the science output will jump to 8 beakers (since 8 commerce will be directed to science).

Again, this is just an example. Furthermore, I'm not saying we'll be able to move the science slider to 40% after we build marketplaces since we're only going to build marketplaces in the cities that produce the most commerce, and they'll have an effect only on income from those cities, not from our entire empire.

---

The only thing that markets lack over Libraries is the production of Culture. Libraries also do not make people any happier. So, Which of these cities will benefit most from a Library or Market. In some, a Library can give us enough Culture to gain more tiles, therefore more commerce, while in others Markets should come first as they will provide the most benefits.

Your thoughts?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I think Ghengistown should build a library first, while the others build marketplaces first (Ghengistown doesn't have a huge population yet due to the massive jungle).

Then Ghengistown builds marketplace and university. The others build libraries then universities. As we start completing the universities we shoudl start edging the slider to a higher concentration on science and make the bulk of out gold from selling science.

In my games I have science maxed out on the minumum # of turns to completion, usually 4 turns at 40 to 60% science rate. I always get the techs first and keep the AI civs broke by selling my tech to all of them.

[roadcage]

I usually start out with Libraries, but only because I have (the requisite techs) sooner. Once I can build either, marketplaces rule.

[Shiber]

Markets do generate happiness. The 3rd and 4th luxury generate an additional happy face each, and the 5th luxury will generate two additional happy faces.
I reckon culture is very important. However, due to the religious nature of our civilization and due to the fact that we have built The Sistine Chapel, I estimate that we'll be building several cathedrals in the near future that will produce plenty of culture.

GhengisFarb: that's a very good point. I agree that techs will become a major source of income in the future. However, to research techs we need beakers and as I've shown above, when properly used, marketplaces can indirectly produce more beakers than libraries.
I propose this build queue for cities with a large commerce output: marketplace, library, bank, university.

[GePap]

The key to more techs is having a wealthier society that can afford more tech spending: simply put: we can never have too many lytons. Marketplaces and Banks are a must.

I think that maretplaces should come first, where we can, unless the culture output of the city matters (so it doesn't flip, or so that we gain more ground).

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Shiber
I propose this build queue for cities with a large commerce output: marketplace, library, bank, university.

I'd build Universities before banks.

[ManicStarSeed]

Each town is different. Build as needed. Since temples are not needed to grow beyond 3 or 4 due to our luxuries, Let us build Libraries, Markets and Temples before worriying about the next step.

We are still pretty much in the first teir of improvements. We should build Banks Universities and Cathedrals in whatever order makes sense when we get to them.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by Shiber
I propose this build queue for cities with a large commerce output: marketplace, library, bank, university.

Agreed -- with one important caveat: CATHEDRALS (which are turbo-powered, because we have Sistine's, of course) (and cheap, because we're religious).
Was this already implied? If not, it should be a priority.

[zeit]

As said by Uno, we can gain a lot more lytons and thus research points if we built marketplace instead of libraries, where culture is not a major issue. Also marketplace will be even better when coupled by the Republic- even greater increase in taxes due to the bonuses and less corruption, and it will make the citizens happier with the luxuries they already have, so we also solve the lack of military police problem.
My vote is for Marketplaces before Libraries.

[Zero]

yes, usually I'd prioritize library due to additonal culture bonus, but it really doesn't make much sense to boost % of our almost non-existing science output right now. All improvements should therefore begin with marketplace first, unless culture is needed... but as Robber Baron points out, we can always get culture from religious buildings since our trait allows faster religious builds and the sistine really rewards our cities for having cathedrals.

[GodKing]

With all the corruption, even markets do nothing. I plan on building more courthouses than markets. The libraries I have started are more for a combo of future science and culture than anything else, particularly as I would like to have at least 5 before we hit the golden age. We already have sistines, so all we need is WC victory or an industrial wonder and we are there. Many of the libraries I started last turn I switch over to cathedrals because of the corruption factor so the library would only have been a drain, at least the cathedrals provide happyness.

[Torkkeli]

What I think is the location of the city tells me a lot about what to build there.

a) border cities
Each border city should have at least one if not two culture buildings to prevent flip and to cause neighbour to flip. (Temple, Library)
When first culture building is in place if corruption is bad build a courthouse.
After these two/three initial buildings the city is in pretty good shape to build anything needed.

b)inner cities
As inner cities have already been bordercities they have usually at least a temple. Now if corruption is not so bad go straight to lib and market. If corruption is bad court, lib, market.

Btw. How much do lib and cath produce culture/turn?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I just love everyone's argurments!

"We don't need to build libraries while our science rate is so low"

"We don't need to increase the science rate until we have a bunch of libraries"

So I take the only victory we're shooting for is conquest as we will never have libraries or an increased science rate?

[zeit]

Indeed, what Torkeli said is a logical compromise. We could really benefit from Marketplaces in large relatively close to the palace cities, like Gaia, for example. This will also increase happiness, giving us an extra of 2 happy faces from the 4 luxuries we have.
but the more corrupted cities need the Courthouses more, i agree with that.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by GodKing
... The libraries I have started are more for a combo of future science and culture than anything else, particularly as I would like to have at least 5 before we hit the golden age. ... Many of the libraries I started last turn I switch over to cathedrals because of the corruption factor so the library would only have been a drain, at least the cathedrals provide happyness.

Sounds like a good strategy. The science payoff from libraries is minimal not only because of our science slider being set at 0, but also due to corruption. So at this point the main benefit from libraries is cultural. But with cathedrals, we get the culture hit plus greatly improved happiness levels. Happiness leads to We Love the King Day, which is one of the best ways to combat corruption on the distant margins of our empire.

At current count, we have 8 cities with a population of at least 5, and only 2 cathedrals built (in Timeline and Macross).
The Almighty Banana demands more.