Prerequisites for Republic

[Shiber]

I have found the discussions regarding the issue of when to switch to Republic very interesting, but I think the idea of setting a time for the switch (e.g. some amount of turns after peace with Persia) is wrong. We should rather agree on a number of conditions, and agree that once all these conditions are met we will switch to Republic.
Therefore, I have decided to open this discussion thread. It is an open discussion thread where everyone can make their suggestions and the most popular and/or most interesting lists of conditions will be put in the top post (this post) for everyone to see. Of course, the elected government will have the final say whether or not the public agrees but I do encourage everyone, elected officials or not, to take part in this discussion.
I will begin with my own proposal to start up the discussion:

Plan #1
* At least 4 luxuries are available to our empire.
* Marketplaces in all cities (7 population and above), to increase the output of happy faces so we can support future growth.
* We either get Astronomy or build cathedrals in Uber Isle towns. Since we're getting Astronomy anyway I'd personally prefer the first solution.
* No prolonged wars planned and no war for a set number of turns (still needs to be worked out).

Plan #2
Same as Plan #1 with just one difference:
*Uber Isle should not hold off the switch. If we switch to Republic before we can transfer luxuries to Uber Isle or build cathedrals there we should turn some citizens into entertainers or other specialists (thus lowering production capabilities) or keep the population at one by creating workers that will connect all the city sites so we'll be ready to distribute goods to all of the island when we have Astronomy and a harbor in AGC.
This will most likely be decided by the City Planner whose decision may be based on a separate discussion in a City Council thread.

Plan #2
No distinctively different plans have been suggested yet.

Note: I don't think this topic falls under the areas which any of the Apolytonian societies and foundations that I am a member of deal with. If it does, please accept my apology for not putting the society's name in the thread topic.

[GodKing]

War werieness IIRC is remembered for two turns only. Therefore I would say peace on all fronts for only 1 turn (1 turn peace, followed by 1 turn of anarchy) so that when we emerge in turn 3 with republic, we are all set to go. Please check this math as I rairly play with religious civs (usualy I play with persians).

Other than that sounds good by me.

[Aggie]

I have requested that reddawg do an economic study of the feasiblity of republic. Remember with our increased income we could raise luxuries, however we will be spending more on units so we needto find out how it will turnout. Its possible we could spend more on lux and then increase science and have money to save remeber we will get another luxury soon. Really I was hopping to really concentrate to some degree on cath,marketplaces,libraries during GA(rmemeber we can build knights thru WC, thus freeing up production sheilds elsewhere). One thing remeber due to sustine cath+lux+temple cities are fine w/o extra lux until size 11 and afe ok with temple to size 5.
Aggie

[Aro]

Good plan, Shiber.
Edit: In fact, is better than this: Excellent thread!

[BigFurryMonster]

GodKing,

We all play with the Persians at the moment...

[Shiber]

Okay, cathedral sounds good. I will update plan #1 to require either Astronomy or Cathedrals in Uber Island towns.

[Shiber]

I've made some other changes (great idea Godking! I've incorporated that into Plan #1).
Anyway, great ideas everyone. Let's hope this thread develops into an enriching discussion.

Does anyone have any distinctively different plans?

[DAVOUT]

The war weariness is decreased during the peace turns, in that case for the last two turns, but it is not enough to cancell what has been accumulated during the countless turns we have been at war.

I suggest that the limit for the marketplace be expressed in number of commerce produced rather than in pop.

[zeit]

There seems to be some disagreement over the war weariness issue. What DAVOUT says, if he is correct, that we should wait a while untill we switch to Republic, but then again, all the rest say this isn't the cased and the weariness is "remembered" for 2 turns after the last war, then cancelled. So is there any way we could verify this, or have an indication when the war weariness is low enough?

[DAVOUT]

About war weariness, Soren Johnson (Firaxis) said :

basically, there is a war weariness factor that is maintained the same way throughout your entire game, regardless of your government type or war status. The only time this factor affects your citizens is if you are at war while in a demo/rep. Nonetheless, the war weariness factor is actually independent of your actual gov type. (This is meant to symbolize that citizens under a depotism are no less happy about being in a war; they just have fewer outlets for their unhappiness...)

[Shiber]

Davout, I will research into the issue of War Weariness tonight.
Regarding marketplaces, I'm very interested in hearing more opinions and suggestions. The idea that some large cities may not justify building a marketplace because they don't produce enough commerce is interesting. If you can formulate this into a condition form (e.g. build marketplaces in cities with this amount of pop. that produce at least that amount of gold) I can put this as Plan #2.

[zeit]

well, what we need now, IMHO, is to devise one plan who those that support a shift to Republic can agree upon, as opposed to several plans with very little differences, that reflect minor disagreements (like this issue of marketplace positioning). After we agree on such a plan we should post a poll and after the hopeful support of the public, give this plan to the appropriate ministers and OPD to execute it

[Randolph]

I think the 'disagreement' about marketplaces is due to their dual nature:
1. increase gold by 50%
2. increase the made my lux (after 2 lux)

if we are considering necessary conditions to switch to the republic the second effect is the more important, and is related to city size more than commerce. we should build markets in high commerce cities regardless of size, but is not a necessary condition for revolution. What is a necessary condition is the extra s, which if we have 4/5 luxs is a mater of 2-4 (quite considerable)

also I don't think we should let Uber slow down the switch. No luxs in Uber will simply mean that we have to make entertainers (essentially halting growing in Uber), but the loss due to this would be rather insignificant compared to the gain in other cities. In other words why worry about losing about 10 commerce in Uber when we will be gaining 100+ through other cities?

[DAVOUT]

Shiber,

Sorens text is in the strategy forum in the thread titled War weariness carryover (http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisp...ld=lastpost&pe).

The formula could be : Build a marketplace when the increase in gold would exceed by (one) the upkeep cost.
Practically, we should aim at an excess of 2 because of the roundings.
If all eligible marketplaces cannot be build at the same time due to other priorities, this method makes possible to begin by the most beneficial.

[zeit]

Davout, what what Soren Johnson from firaxis said doesn't answer my question, of course what he said is taken into consideration, otherwise we wouldn't need any waiting period, and we could even shift to Rep in the middle of a war without the accumulated weariness being a problem. We know it exists in monarchy, and will become a problem after we overthrow the monarchy. Hopefully shiber will find out how much time exactly we have to wait untill the effect of the war weariness is low enough (or preferably, non existant) to allow us to safely become a Repbulic.