Extra cash through selling techs

[Shiber]

We can't wait.
Some are saying that if we wait three or four turns those civs will have more gold to offer. Well, how do you know? It's more likely that once they have over 20 gold they'll hurry some project or buy a world map or something, and it's very possible that they'll get Monotheism and Chivalry by then too.
Waiting is too risky. To wait and risk losing our trade option altogether for the slim chance that those civs will be able to scrap off a few more coins in three or four turns seems unwise to me.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Thud
This plan has my stamp of approval.

My only issue is that I was going to suggest waiting 3 turns, but would we then still get the worker? Perhaps, also, a civ might buy or discover these techs anyhow. Seems a risk we don't need to take.

If we could wait some turns, better. If not, as said by Thud and Shiber, let's go for it right now!

Your plan is good, Shiber, as always.

[Shiber]

Ninot: yes, you're right. I'll use gold instead of lytons next time.
Thud: you mean you ministers actually get your own stamps? Can I have one too? Pleeeeease?

[adaMada]

I agree in general with this plan, but have a few specific comments about each part. Basically, though, it boils down to that I think we probably COULD wait -- Civs aren't burning money that fast, and I've seen the AI with over twenty gold.

America:
In the past, has had a reasonable amount of gold. They're not likely to get it from another civ, considering their lack of substantial money, not likey to get themselves, considering they have no infastructure -- we might loose the sixteen gold if they spend it next turn, but we're not likely to loose much else, and I think a little bit of risk is worth it when we're talking about such little gold, especially when we could be talking about a 50% increase by waiting a few turns.

Iroquois: They are a charity civ, but the deal's barely worth it. If we care that much about relations with them, or want to make sure they're prepared when someone declares war on them, then we could make it a gift. If not, I guess we COULD sell it now, but in this case I see no disadvantage to waiting three turns and seeing where they are. If they've got another ten gold, then the deal's worth a little bit. If they've lost it all, then we're talking about gifting it anyway.

Babylon: Small deal, but they pose no threat to anyone... again, I'd personally wait a turn or two and see if we can't get an extra few gold out of them.

France: Not sure if I'd give them Chivilary for nothing... if they have a chance, I think they will attack us later. Also, we know France stockpiles cash -- we took twenty gold from them last turn, and I think we've done deals with them where they've given us up to forty (though that was probably back when we were paying them gpt). Again, my gut feeing is to wait -- we're not talking much loss, and if they get another ten gold then it'd be more worth it.

Basically, I'd wait a turn or two and then see where we are for all the Civs. My way of thinking is that we don't loose much if any one civ blows all their money (two turns later they'll have as much money as they do now, and we can try again), and they're not likely to get the techs on their own (no one else'll give it to them, and Babylon is the only civ who I could see researching it themselves. France might be able to do it too -- I don't know how much we hurt their science capacity during our war.)

-- adaMada

[Shiber]

Originally posted by adaMada
not likey to get themselves, considering they have no infastructure

First of all, they're a Republic so they make extra gold.
Second, we're in Emperor so AIs get a discount of 25% on the cost of techs in beakers, meaning they research a lot faster than you think.
Third, they've been researching for about 25-30 turns now so it's very possible that they'll get Monotheism within the next few turns and then we'll lose 16 gold and a worker.

Originally posted by adaMada
...and I think a little bit of risk is worth it when we're talking about such little gold, especially when we could be talking about a 50% increase by waiting a few turns.

Or a 100% decrease if we run out of luck. We're betting a 50% increase against losing it all where the chances for either are equal!

Originally posted by adaMada
Babylon: Small deal, but they pose no threat to anyone... again, I'd personally wait a turn or two and see if we can't get an extra few gold out of them.

And I'd bet they have libraries already.

Originally posted by adaMada
if they have a chance, I think they will attack us later.

When is later? When we have Cavalry?
Furthermore, do you seriously think that the AIs are so disobedient to their own programming that a nation with the lowest possible aggression level and which depends on us for the supply of two luxuries and a crucial strategic resource and has the production capability of roughly one fifth of what we have, will declare war on us?

Originally posted by adaMada
Also, we know France stockpiles cash

We do?
Unless you come up with any solid proof that AIs follow a distinct policy of spending money throughout the game you can't prove anything like that.

Look adaMada, I'm really sorry for being rather rude here but I just didn't expect such nonsense from you. You usually act as the voice of reason and base your conclusions with facts and figures.

[adaMada]

Shiber,

America:

Originally posted by Shiber
First of all, they're a Republic so they make extra gold.
Second, we're in Emperor so AIs get a discount of 25% on the cost of techs in beakers, meaning they research a lot faster than you think.
Third, they've been researching for about 25-30 turns now so it's very possible that they'll get Monotheism within the next few turns and then we'll lose 16 gold and a worker.

America may be worth it -- it's the only one I'd consider right now, since they do have enough money to perhaps make a small gain. I'm not sure how long they've been researching it, and it is possible they'll get it in the near future -- I don't know.

[quote]Or a 100% decrease if we run out of luck. We're betting a 50% increase against losing it all where the chances for either are equal![quote]
Yes, that's very true. Having said that, we're talking about loosing between six and ten gold, with the exception of the America deal. As Togas pointed out, it costs Eighty Gold to upgrade a Knight, and we make something in the relm of thirty gold per turn if I remember correctly (I'm guessing, since I don't know how much we're making while we pay for the Chiv. deal, but it should be something in the area of thirty to fourty gold). If we can get another five gold out of each Civ by waiting a few turns, we'd be adding twenty gold to the plan, and then it'd be worth a lot more to us. I'm not saying we can add five gold per civ, but I don't see a major loss if we gamble and fail, especially considering that we're not likely to fail with all the civs.

Babylon:

And I'd bet they have libraries already.

Probably -- I did make note of the fact that Babylon may be able to


France attacking us:

When is later? When we have Cavalry?
Furthermore, do you seriously think that the AIs are so disobedient to their own programming that a nation with the lowest possible aggression level and which depends on us for the supply of two luxuries and a crucial strategic resource and has the production capability of roughly one fifth of what we have, will declare war on us?

I'm not necessarially saying that I believe that France will attack us in the near future. What I am saying is that I believe we're giving them something for practically nothing. Also, I do believe that France would go to war with us if another civ offers them enough cash for it and if they're not tied down with any Trade deals, considering how much they hate us.

Re: Stockpiling cash

We do?
Unless you come up with any solid proof that AIs follow a distinct policy of spending money throughout the game you can't prove anything like that.

This is one thing I can speak for. I don't know why the AI was holding on to money, but I've been running trade after trade through the Diplo. screen for the past two weeks, and they haven't always been spending it as soon as they get to twenty gold. They've almost had thirty at times, and IIRC we once got 40 gold out of France. Now, to be perfectly fair and honest, some of this was during the time when we were paying France gpt, and that may have affected things, but I can vouch that the AI (specifically France) hasn't always been using all their cash every time they get twenty gold. I can't say that this'll continue on into the future, or even that they won't use all their money next turn -- I acknolwedge that you're much better at game mechanics than I am, and I simply don't know. Having said that, the AI hasn't always followed that pattern in the recent past.

Look adaMada, I'm really sorry for being rather rude here but I just didn't expect such nonsense from you. You usually act as the voice of reason and base your conclusions with facts and figures.

I have a great deal of respect for you, your planning ability, and your understanding of game mechanics. I also didn't word my last post that well either, and we may not have been communicating clearly. Having said that, I think that (in general) this specific trade would be giving away a lot and not getting much back. When we're talking about picking up eight gold for a modern tech, I'm personally inclined to hang on a bit, risk loosing the eight gold, but trying to get a more substantial sum. We could probably call it a difference in playing styles, but there it is.

Again, to clarify, and taking into account what you've just said, here's my updated and revised stances on each trade deal:

America: Should be considered. I think we could get a bit more gold out of them, but sixteen gold way help in some way.

Iroquois: I think that waiting a turn or two, we probably could get more gold out of them. If we want to give it to them because their a Charity Civ, then that's fine, but if we're expecting to turn a profit, then wait another turn or two (it's a small risk).

Babylon: I don't know that we can wait much longer on them. If 9 gold is worth anything, we should take it.

France: Don't like the idea of giving them any military advantage. If I'm alone in this, then give 'em what they want (though I'd still wait another turn or two for it).

-- adaMada

[Reddawg]

Not sure why this issue is so divisive, but the MoE approves any and all tech sales during this turn, with the intent that they go to upgrading one (1) knight.

[Shiber]

adaMada, it's too bad I couldn't persuade you to change your mind about this but it's a free world (if you forget about Majestic 12 and Echelon for a second ) and you're entitled to your own opinion.
I think we've both stated our opinions very clearly. Now it's up to the ministers to decide upon this.

[adaMada]

Agreed .

I wouldn't have any problems with this plan, just for the record -- I just think we can do better, and give away a lot.

I guess we'll just see what Togas decides . (Since Thud and Reddawg have already signed off on it.)

-- adaMada

[Togas]

Decisions

I'm stunned to see so much debate about such a small amount of money. Shiber, my friend, you need to pick your battles! No need to be so defensive and go after ada like that. Even if we went with all of these suggestions, we couldn't even afford to upgrade to a knight or hurry production for a temple.

I'd like to get that American worker to replace the one we gave Rome. American workers are semi-industrious, and they work faster than our other slaves. They're also good at Jungle Ball. Might be the running back of the future in there for the Apolytonia Archers.

I seriously doubt America will get the tech in the next few turns, they might very well move the worker out of their capitol, so I'm going to authorize that deal despite the small profit. We'll have other chances to bleed them dry of cash in the future.

Trade deal approved for America

As for the Iriquois, they're not going to learn Chivalry in the next few turns, and we're the only fools who will sell it to them for nothing.

Wait a few turns, then sell to Iriquois.

As for Babylon, they're a culture/science civ that researches well despite their small size. My guess is that they will avoid this dead-end tech and climb the tree towards more culturally useful techs. We may be able to trade them Chivalry later for a tech we don't have. There is a risk they will develop it first themselves, but for only 9 gold, I'll take that risk.

No trade at this time with Babylon, unless they give us tech.

As for France, they may also avoid Chivalry to get a useful tech we could trade to them. Given their attitude and ANY civ's propensity to take a bribe and foolishly get into a war, and given their attitude, I don't want to GIVE France a war tech, but I'll trade it to them for value. I'm betting they'll either get Theology or more gold later on, so a trade later is worth the risk of a very small amount of gold now.

No trade at this time with France, unless they give us tech.

--Togas

Edited to reflect change in policy

[Shiber]

I urge you to change your attitude towards the deal with France to "No trade unless they offer another tech in exchange".

[Togas]

Originally posted by Shiber
I urge you to change your attitude towards the deal with France to "No trade unless they offer another tech in exchange".

I'll go ahead and do that for now. We'll check later on to see if they're willing to pay more, but most likely we'll stick to this policy. Eventually either France of Baby will skip Chiv for Theology and we'll be able to work out a good trade with them.

Actually, I'll make one more change to my turnchat orders. I'm going to add that if we can trade Chiv for Theology at any time during the chat, we'll do it.

--Togas

[Shiber]

Theology or Engineering.

[Zero]

shouldnt we sell chivary to all civ since ai swaps techs whenever they can anyway