pre poll discussion: should abstain option be required in official polls

[UnOrthOdOx]

I am looking at creation of an ammendment requiring an abstain option in official polls.

Currently there is no way for us to track the active member list, and therefore no way for us to say that if x% don't vote then the poll cannot be valid. This is where abstain votes could come in. People could then voice their displeasure with a poll by casting a vot of abstain. Whether or not Abstain votes are to be counted towards the final % required for a poll to pass is currently in court (see case 1) and will be decided there. Even if they are not counted, however, it will prove usefull to see how many protest an actual poll. Perhaps we can set up that if x% abstain a repoll must be made.

Ok, open to your thoughts.

[Shiber]

I have to agree.
The poll starter must declare how abstain votes will be treated in the first post of the poll thread though. When it comes to official polls the government should decide on this (the president and/or the minister or ministers whose offices relate to the topic of the poll).

[Epistax]

I don't mind whether or not there is an abstain optionon, or whether or not they count as no's, as long as it is explicitly stated in the poll.
Options: Yea, Nay, Abstain (no)
Simply by reading peoples comments, you can see some people abstain for reasons other than dissatisfaction with the poll, including not knowing much about it, and having no opinion.

I would like to tell people, however, that using this system gives us less information. If we use abstain as truely abstain-- as in counts for nothing in the vote-- then we can see how well points were made by both sides. By making them count as no votes however, people might abstain for different reasons. Heck, someone could decide he might as well vote abstain instead of nay.

[GodKing]

As long as the definition of how abstains will be handled in the first post, then I think all should have it.

[DAVOUT]

If we want to maximize the informations resulting from a poll, I think it would help to differentiate people who dislike equally the proposed options from the people who agree equally to the different options or dont know how to choose.
These two cases should have two different buttons.
And if the winner has less than half the count of those who dislike, a new poll should be organized.

Concerning those who dont want or dont bother to vote at all, they would not been counted.

[adaMada]

Abstain's a good option, but I don't think it should be used in cases where people dislike the poll itself -- personally, I use it when I just don't care .

Just thought I'd add that in, since I don't think abstain votes should be taken as "I don't like this poll". Instead, they should be taken as "I have no particular feelings either way."

Besides that, though, let's amend away .

-- adaMada

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yeah, I worded that funny.

Abstains should be there for 'i dont care' 'I like the general idea, but it is not ready yet' stuff like that, or some want it just to object to the poll (I have seen people claim that at least)

[Kloreep]

Why not just have two more required options: abstain, which means you're there and voting but don't want to affect the outcome (doesn't count as yea or nay), and "I want a repoll": if it gets the majority, it forces a repoll without the weeks of waiting being required. If it doesn't get the majority, the result is nay if the nay votes are greater than the yea votes, and repoll if the yea votes are greater.

[Captain]

yes/no votes have clear meaning. abstains could be for a variety of reasons, whether no opinion, protest, or whatever. therefore, abstainers should post "abstain" and give a reason why. they are not obliged to, but it would give much more information than simply a number on a poll.

or if the definition of abstain will be given in the first post. that is a good idea.

[Captain]

Why not just have two more required options: abstain, which means you're there and voting but don't want to affect the outcome (doesn't count as yea or nay), and "I want a repoll": if it gets the majority, it forces a repoll without the weeks of waiting being required. If it doesn't get the majority, the result is nay if the nay votes are greater than the yea votes, and repoll if the yea votes are greater.

Good idea, but I'd change the last section to

if it (I want a repoll) gets the majority, it forces a repoll without the weeks of waiting being required. If it doesn't get the majority, the result is nay if the nay votes are greater than the yea votes, and yea if the yea votes are greater.

italics, bold mine

[Togas]

Originally posted by adaMada
Abstain's a good option, but I don't think it should be used in cases where people dislike the poll itself -- personally, I use it when I just don't care .

I use abstain when I have no particular feeling either way, but want to know how the vote is turning out.

Abstain means that we choose not to vote, but the funny thing is, we're voting according to the system. I wish the system had a means for people to view the results without affecting them.

--Togas

p.s. There's always "Banana" in cases where someone doesn't like the above listed options.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Captain


Good idea, but I'd change the last section to

if it (I want a repoll) gets the majority, it forces a repoll without the weeks of waiting being required. If it doesn't get the majority, the result is nay if the nay votes are greater than the yea votes, and yea if the yea votes are greater.

italics, bold mine

This is a good idea for official polls about the game which need to be decided quickly if possible; but I think amendments should equal a repoll in the case of a yea+repoll majority, since some repoll voters will become yea voters the next time around (assuming it's rewritten to people's satisfaction), hopefully giving it the needed 2/3rds.

This is because I don't think repolls due to the amendment itself will be all that common, especially if the amendment is bounced around in a prepoll discussion and compromises are made to make everyone happy. Once that happens, there aren't many more changes to be made, and I think votes would generally be along yea/nay lines. This way, the repoll option would mainly be for occurences like the turnchat scheduling amendment, which a lot of posters liked but didn't want to require a full weeks notice. If repoll had been available and repoll+yea had won a repoll, the amendment could have been quickly changed and put up for a vote immediately, without the two week's wait, and, hopefully, the result will satisfy more people - as opposed to only the less than 2/3rds that voted yea but got a boost from the repoll vote being the only ones who liked the amendment, but letting it pass anyway.

Whew... that's a long paragraph. Hope I got my point across.

[Darkness' Edge]

i agree with kloreep...sounds good to me

[adaMada]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Yeah, I worded that funny.

Abstains should be there for 'i dont care' 'I like the general idea, but it is not ready yet' stuff like that, or some want it just to object to the poll (I have seen people claim that at least)

Okay .

As I said before, you've got my vote, and more power to ya .

-- adaMada

[notyoueither]

I would say that 'abstains' should be consistent in their meaning regardless of the poll. The game needs simplicity, not further controversy.

Do we allow poll makers to redefine 'yes' and 'no' with each poll? Allowing 'abstain' to mean different things in each poll would allow for some tricky issues to reach the court and compel the court to interpret what some given group of citizens wanted. One interpretation too many if you ask me.

For amendment polls, I would be in favour of saying that 'yes' must outnumber 'no' by 67% to 33% of that sub total AND that 'yes' must outnumber BOTH 'no' and 'abstain' by at least 1 vote.

For other threads, then... let 'yes' outnumber 'no'. Flat. Abstain with a stated reason in the thread still has it's effect. You are a citizen. You had your say. Everyone who was interested was exposed to your view.

The great thing about this game is that all citizens possess the power of the press. We are far removed from the disempowered voices of representative systems in the real world where the diapproval of the minority is lost in the wail of the special interest dominated media.