Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Damn the Polls! We need a Legislature.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Damn the Polls! We need a Legislature.

    Not long ago, a poll about embassies was created, whether we should begin them or not. The majoriy voted aganst them. For many, this is a clear sign of the people's whishes. BUt I think it is also a blow agaist our chosen way of government, bad for the future, an simply, unconstitutional (or must be). Why?

    We elect ministers to advise the president , which means, of course, that the ministers decide what to do, since rarely does the president refuse to carry out the advice of the ministers (if the president CAN is an interesting question). Thus, the ministers are the ones that make the everyday decisions of their posts. No one posts a poll about how our military commander should move the troops. There was never a vote on Plan Pink, it was simply viewed as wise, and carried out. Why then should the Foreign Minister be shackled against taking an action that is clearly in the perview of their office? Because it uses money? Then we will have to poll whenever we want to rush something. That is obviously not going to happen. Whether we have embassies or not is, and must be, solely the discretion of the Foreing Minister and the President. Why? What is the point of electing officials if they have no real power, if when anyone posts a poll, their power is sapped away? No, we elect officials, give them power and responsibility, and the way we hold them responsible is at the ballot box, or soon, with the courts. Both of these ways are fine and alllow the system to work: restricting the ability of ministers by POLL disrupts the system and creates havoc. We elected our ministers for a reason, most citizens never will go to a turnchat, which is just as well, and at turchat they make decisions. They must be free to act , free of polls, always knowing that they bear full resposibility (good or bad) for their actions.

    The question then is, if direct polling is a bad way to restrict the acts of ministers, how can the average citizen, who again, will never be at turnchats, voice their views besides every two months?

    We now have two branches of government, the executive, and the judicial. That leaves a third out, the legislative. We supposedly had a Dem Game senate, but that fell apart and has no power. Just as we have created a court system, we need to create a legislative system also. On what laws will the court judge? Just the constitution? How wil we handle future constitutional changes? will the executive continue to be the one to handle that too? Up to a point, since most people are only halfway involved, it gives the ministers too much power. Since polls are a terrible way to counter this power (we never were a direct democracy, ets not imagine we are), we need the third branch of government, the legislative.

    Of course, this leaves big huge question open. What powers, what size, what lenght of terms, method of election?, so forth. But I think it is an important conversation to start. As we progress, the questions will only get tougher, so we might as well handle them now, and not three admins from today.

    I wul finally add that a legislative branch may hopefully allow for greater participation, by giving more official posts to more citizens, making them part of the system, hopefully making them more present to the game we ar all trying to construct together.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

  • #2
    Sounds like a great idea...
    but remember, we ARE a pretty small group. Direct democracy shouldn't be THAT hard. We are the Democracy game! If we have a legislature, then we are the Republic game!

    I see your points though. It might be a good idea to give a legislature a try. I wouldn't mind being a rep!

    Oh, and they DID vote on all those Color Cases and Plan Animals.
    ~THE DARK LORD APOLON

    Comment


    • #3
      If we are truly to have a Legislature, the way (I think) it would work is each minister would propose bills at a hearing. The full ministry would vote each bill on. If it passed, then it would be executed pretty much unilaterally by the minister in charge of that department, however needing to confer where boundaries jurisdiction are evident.

      I agree that right now, the ministry is weak, beyond being able to make suggestions that are usually widely accepted. Should an unpopular but wise decision be allowed to pass? Sure-- but it never will if it's always put in front of the entire populace. We vote people into office for a reason, and it would be nice to see this reason realized.


      So the question becomes, do we want a real Legislature, and if so, how do we get there?

      Comment


      • #4
        I think a legislature might be too much. I supported it in the beginning, but it doesn't seem to be needed now. There are more than enough polls for people to vote in and affect the game. People can post and argue about things just like in a real legislature too.
        "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
        "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
        "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
        "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

        Comment


        • #5
          If people feel that we are too few for a codified group (elected), we still need to create a system, and laws, about where the powers of minsters stop, and the ability of things to be decided by polls begin. If I sarted a poll baout whether the persian warrior should a. continue wandering, b. head back home, woul Uber, or any future War minister have to feel they are bound to the results?

          The embassie poll was not carried out by the Foreign Minister. How then could it be valid? and if the Foreign Minsters decides to forget the pol, and make embassies anyway because they trully believe it will help the game , could they be held guilty (impeached) for this act? and who wil make all the laws about were misterial powers end and citizen rights begin? There are many things unanswered. Perhaps if we cut back the number of ministers, by reorganizing cabinets and merging many into more rational entities, and then took the extra folk an created a mini legislature, we could move on.

          I see no reason why we shoul have more than 7 in the executive branch, Prez, VP, and 5 ministers, which really, is about how many show up to turchats anyway.
          If you don't like reality, change it! me
          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • #6
            This is very interesting. I believe however that the one thing keeping everything in check is the peoples power of impeachment and the fact that no one has anything to gain by acting in an inappropriate manner.

            I agree that right now, the ministry is weak, beyond being able to make suggestions that are usually widely accepted. Should an unpopular but wise decision be allowed to pass? Sure-- but it never will if it's always put in front of the entire populace. We vote people into office for a reason, and it would be nice to see this reason realized.
            Everyhting either must be put to vote in front of the entire populace or the legislative branch must include everyone that is decided to be active by the president. This is what I suggest:

            If we where to have a legislative branch then every citizen that is said to be active by the president must be allowed to be part of it. If every active citizen isn't part of it then why would anyone stay? The people who are nothing but citizens wouldn't have any say and there would be no reason for them to keep playing therefore:

            I wul finally add that a legislative branch may hopefully allow for greater participation
            Unless everyone active in the game can participate in the legislature then participation would be made greater for some but far less for others.
            For your photo needs:
            http://www.canstockphoto.com?r=146

            Sell your photos

            Comment


            • #7
              For a long time I thought that this wouldn't work because we don't have enough people, but I just realized that this could work fine AND solve our membership problems. Basically, anyone who is active here (we could judge by number of posts or some other means) is on the legislature. Only these people would be able to vote on most issues, voting being throught posting an aye or nay vote, and if you want to giving your reasons. However, beyond your vote post you cannot post in the voting threads.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think this should be allowed but not put in the constitution. Instead, we need rules in the constitution requiring more polls from ministers (uber has never made a single poll of any sort concerning exploration, for example). One rule I think there should be is that no minister can EVER disobey a poll that has over 60% of the people supporting one option.

                Comment


                • #9
                  We are the legislature.

                  I know the COL doesn't say it, but that is in effect what we are. De facto. Fait accompli.

                  We are the ones who vote in the COL, amendments, secondary laws, procedures, and policies. We do so by polling. Official polls are like "policies" that we have approved/ratified. Generally, we expect the government to follow them. (But note that our COL says that officials do NOT have to obey polls. The FAM was not required to obey the poll results, by law, he just felt it was prudent and put his opinion of what was best below that of what the public desired.)

                  So, in effect, we are the legislature. Sure we don't really represent anyone else, nor were we elected, but that's fine. We represent ourselves. We're a mix between a Direct democracy and a Republican form. That's the way this was set up, Some of it, we don't really have much choice in, that's the nature of the mechanics of a "democracy game".

                  Incidentally, the active citizenry is less than half the total membership. In a sense, we are lacking, since most legislatures have a way of a calling all members in to vote in emergencies or critical issues. But the "low" voter turnout in polls is fine, there are always legislators who are absent or away when government is in session.

                  I don't think we need a separate "legislature". The one we have now is fine. If the ministers feel hamstrung, they should familiarize themselves with the COL. Of course, they may not get re-elected later.., but such is the price of doing what you feel is right and abiding by your principles. Sacrifice for the nation. But hopefully, come election time, perhaps you can convince the public you were right.
                  Proud Citizen of the Civ 3 Demo Game
                  Retired Justice of the Court, Staff member of the War Academy, Staff member of the Machiavelli Institute
                  Join the Civ 3 Demo Game $Mini-Game! ~ Play the Civ 3 Demo Game $Mini-Game!
                  Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In short, Captain took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with everything he said. So just read his post if you want to know what I think, which we all know none of you do.

                    Kman
                    "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
                    - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
                    Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I too think Captain has put his finger right on it. We have already achieved representative government, by virtue of the fact that we vote in our ultimate decision makers, and surround them with constant advice, questions, demands .... and they play the game. Seems about as democratic on the one hand, and as clean and workable in terms of gameplay on the other, as things are going to get, IMO.
                      aka, Unique Unit
                      Wielder of Weapons of Mass Distraction

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We're closer to the original idea of democracy than most real countries, since our population is so small that they can actually show up to the discussion, yell, effectively, down to the ministers on the stage, and hear the ministers yelling back. So just think of yourself as being in the Acropolis forum circa 400 BC, and it's all good.
                        Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There is little need at the moment for MORE legal clutter. The judiciary may have enough problems interpreting the laws we have at the moment if they get any cases.

                          NO more sodding complexity! We have a base set of laws for everyone to follow, a judiciary to interpret them and a populace that makes important decisions. We need no more!

                          That said, we should have a few more polls on movements of troops. I assume what is happening at the moment is all part of the plan (whatever it's called) to attack America. I also assume there was majority support for the plan as a whole at the time. A few weeks later, I have not seen any polls on movement orders or build queues. If we are still following the plan - how about an update on what is the next part of the plan? And if it is up to the Ministers at the moment, this must change.
                          Consul.

                          Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            NO more sodding complexity! We have a base set of laws for everyone to follow, a judiciary to interpret them and a populace that makes important decisions. We need no more!
                            Amen to that.
                            "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
                            - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
                            Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I totally agree with captain, We are the legislature, We ARE the SENATE! creating another body of goverment to replace what we citizens already do. It will distance the citizens not in the legislature from the game. WE also have to watch out to prevent from overflating our goverment. I'm sure you all dont want to here my preaching on limited goverment.

                              as far as skywalkers comments about having everybody that has alot of posts being in this "legislature" and that it will solve voting problems and scams; I am a registered citizen and follow the game regularly, however i dont post all the time. Does that mean i would not be in this legislature??

                              Overall if this ever came to an amendment vote, i would place my valuble and counted vote on NAY!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X