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America or France? Part II

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  • America or France? Part II

    As more info trickles in (as is always the case), I felt like starting up one last thread tonight then hit the sack (so to speak). Over the past turnchat, we learned that France is bordered by the Notylopa Jungle on its northern and eastern borders, and the massive Great Rift mountain chain on it's south and east.

    Okay, we know that. What about America? Well, chances are (we'll know more later, of course), that they have very nice land to their north. They also have plains to the west of them, towards which they'll no doubt expand.

    So where does that put us then? Well, look at the big picture. France has nearly used up all of its good land already, while America has plenty of areas to expand to. Add on to that that America is an expansionist civ, and you have the workings for a very interesting situation. My proposal is to modify Case Pink to make America our first target. France will run out of good land long before our first war, while America can (and will) expand for some time, until we slice them up. I feel that we should knock out America early, take their land for our own expansion, and let France flounder in the jungle. In time, we will be able to build up a new strike force to take their good land to the west of the jungle and their mineral resources in the Great Rift. France will have no where to expand to but the jungle, which will render them weak after their land is used up. They will make a good vassal once we have the time to actually aim for that goal. Right now in ~2500 BC our only goal is survival... not crippling and enslaving another civ. Just to make it. Later on we will have many an opportunity to deal with the French. But right now what will benefit us most is an expansionist civ erased from the map, and the good land they sit on to be added to our empire.

    As always, we'll know more later, but based upon what we know now, my opinion has shifted, and I propose that America, and not France be our next target for these reasons I have stated above.

  • #2
    The time for final decisions is 20 or 25 turns in the future.

    You make good points about the grasslands of the Americans. However, we must also consider the iron that the French no doubt have.

    It will be good to see what else the scouts can uncover. Maybe we could have coastal warrior loop back up to get a view of the Eastern area of the Americans.
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    (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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    • #3
      As a counterpoint to the iron issue, America's land is more likely to have horses. War Chariots have an attack value of 2 which matches the swordsman's defense value.
      Est-ce que tu as vu une baleine avec un queue taché?
      If you don't feel the slightist bit joyful seeing the Iraqis dancing in the street, then you are lost to the radical left. If you don't feel the slightest bit bad that we had to use force to do this, then you are lost to the radical right.

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      • #4
        both sides have their pros... we need to scout a bit more.

        America
        • Fertile Grasslands
        • Dyes (we see like 4 or 5, some not in their borders)
        • Possible Horses
        • A Nice River
        • Other Jungle-Based Rivers neaby
        • A good position, blocks off the east for us


        France
        • Fertile Grasslands, Forests, Hills
        • wines (2 we see)
        • Possible Iron
        "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
        - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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        • #5
          What We Know for Sure 2470bc

          Distances given as Total, D (diagonal) and S (straight). Diagonal is equivalent to about 1.5 straight for corruption (or some such). Total for corruption in brackets.

          --- America
          Capitol Location: Washington (grassland), on River
          Number of Cities: 2
          Known Resources: Dye
          Likely Resources: Horses
          Techs to Gain: Alphabet, The Wheel, Mysticism

          Distance between Capitols: 15, D9 S6 (19 or 20)
          Closest City fm Capitol (x): New York
          Distance fm Capitol to x: 10, D9 S1 (14 or 15)
          Closest Cities (y and z): BananaHQ - New York
          Distance between y and z: 5

          Distance from closest Barracks to Capitol: 11
          Number of Jungle Tiles to link y and z with Road: 3 (1 on Dye).


          --- France
          Capitol Location: Paris ???, ???
          Number of Cities: 2
          Known Resources: Wine
          Likely Resources: Iron, Horses
          Techs to Gain: Alphabet, Mysticism

          Distance between Capitols: 16, D6 S10 (19)
          Closest City fm Capitol (x): Orleans
          Distance fm Capitol to x: 13, D2 S11 (14)
          Closest Cities (y and z): Red City - Orleans
          Distance between y and z: 9

          Distance from closest Barracks to Capitol: 12
          Number of Jungle Tiles to link y and z: 6


          It seems as if the numbers give the nod to the Americans as targets right now. Especially since they lead in tech. France can buy tech from them while we bash on them and we in turn can buy from France.

          I'm surprised by the numbers for linking our nearest 2 cities being so in favour of attacking the Americans (as of right now, we shall see). As am I surprised to find that the distances for corruption are almost identical. I believe I was misleading myself in my desire to secure iron at the earliest possible moment.

          In any event, we should be able to buy The Wheel shortly. That should reveal that we are sitting on them. That may make the French iron all that much more attractive. We shall see.
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          • #6
            BTW. Did anybody notice that there is Forest NW of Banana HQ? On a river.

            3S, 1SW of Washington.
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            (='.'=)
            (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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            • #7
              According to the current intelligence files, Washington seems to be darn good located for a capital. Could be ours. But I preserve my vote till more of the map is discovered. I still think, we should pick on both of them. The question is only, in what order.

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              • #8
                Last time I voted for an attack on France, but I changed my mind, let's take out America
                This space is empty... or is it?

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                • #9
                  /me thinks our president has spoken wisely

                  However, although America seems like a better choice now, things may still change. So I'd suggest we make a new poll just before we're ready to attack.

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                  • #10
                    It would seem the wiser course to wait until more of the geograhpy has been discovered before deciding upon which unsuspecting country to play with.

                    Also considering that ethics have entered the fray, maybe we should look at our relationship with the different nations and how they can possiby evolve.

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                    • #11
                      I like the sound of attacking America too.

                      We need to scout out more of their territory though.

                      However, we need to have an army before we can attack anybody. We currently do not.

                      Who knows? No decision needs to made until we have an army, in 25+ turns America might be too strong for us to risk attacking, maybe they won't ... maybe France will have Swordsmen ... maybe they won't.
                      Until such a time as we are ready to attack we must scout out as much land as possible. Then we will have enough info to make an informed choice.
                      If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.

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                      • #12
                        In more recent games I've played, there has been quite a mistake made... letting the Americans expand. Soon enough, they wiped me out with a superior military. As for France, I've been able to wipe them out easily regardless of whether or not I pruned them before they could expand.

                        Therefore, my opinion would be more towards attacking the Americans. We need to deal with them before they grow too big. And since its on the Emperor difficulty, that will definitely happen with the bonuses the AI receives, as well as their tendency to build up population (which in turn increases settler production whenever there's still unoccupied territory on the map).

                        Not to mention that past the jungle are some good lands that may very well contain horses. War chariots may well be the Apolytonians' ride to glory.

                        Once America has been at the very least pruned, and our forces are repaired and rebuilt, we can always then turn around and take France out next.
                        "Corporation, n, An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." -- Ambrose Bierce
                        "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -- Benjamin Franklin
                        "Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." -- Thomas Jefferson

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                        • #13
                          This is exactly what I have said. It would benefit us far more to attack and defeat America, an expansionist, aggressive civilization with claims to good lands. I have been saying it for days, and now the President confirms my statements. And so, America, I believe, must now be our number one target. The Americans have the Wheel, this is so, but if we strike quickly and if we strike hard enough, they won't have the time to defend themselves. To Washington, sirs, the scene shifts. It is a perfect position for a city, and especially for a capitol. If we can take that city, we shall render the Americans almost useless in their counter-attacks, and they shall not be a great civilization again. It must be done. If we do not attack them now in this Case Pink, we most assuredly shall have to fight them at some later date, and it shall be all the worse for us.
                          Empire growing,
                          Pleasures flowing,
                          Fortune smiles and so should you.

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                          • #14
                            America now seems to be the best choice. That could change, but everything is subject to change, so we should go on what we have.

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                            • #15
                              Yeah, I'm starting to rethink Case Pink, too. IF (big if) the Yanks are sitting on good land, with more to their north, then it would be better to take out the Expansionist rival first. In particular, it would be nice to get the horses, to bring our UU into play. Theoretically, we could time a golden age to coincide with our second war (against France?).
                              Plus, with the Iroquois roaming the continent, we're gonna need horsies. (Mounted Warriors. )
                              So we'll see what our warrior scouts uncover. Let's definitely poke around the outskirts of the Yankee cities.
                              aka, Unique Unit
                              Wielder of Weapons of Mass Distraction

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