The ministry of Trade thread

[GePap]

Jurisdiction issues

I have a question about trade advisor: Since we need certain infrastructure (roads over resources, roads or sea lanes connecting to foreign capitol) does the Trade advisor get any special powers to advise other ministers when the decisions they whish to take directly influence the Ministry of Trade's job? Also, will trade of jey resources, like Iron, Oil, Uranium and Rubber, be the sole decision of the Trade minister, or will the War ministr, foreign ministry and others get a veto on such important trades?

[Spiffor]

The minister of Trade can officially petition the minister of public works to connect cities and trading goods to the trade network. He has, however, no direct power on workers, and the minister of public works can completely ignore those requests if he really wants.

The minister of trade, says the constitution, has all power about trade involving solely gold and goods. But I don't imagine any minister stupid enough to sell oil to future enemies, or to sell any resource without consulting the foreign / military ministers first.

However, I am currently working on a project to clarify things out. People will decide if this project is good or not.

[Spiffor]

Ok, at last I translated my excel table of resources into a HTML table. Now, you can know what resources the knon Civs have in one glance ! (sorry, it's very ugly, but I suck at HTML) :

1450 BC

RESOURCES



    
    

        

        
Horses
        
Iron
        
Saltpeter
        
Coal
        
Oil
        
Rubber
        
Aluminium
        
Uranium
    

        
    

        
Apolytonia
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Rome
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Greece
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Babylon
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Germany
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Russia
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
China
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
America
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Japan
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
France
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
India
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Persia
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Aztecs
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Zululand
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Iroquois
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
England
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    





LUXURIES


    
    

        

        
Wines
        
Furs
        
Dyes
        
Incense
        
Spices
        
Ivory
        
Silks
        
Gems
    

        
    

        
Apolytonia
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Rome
        
XXX
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Greece
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Babylon
        

        

        

        
X
        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Germany
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Russia
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
China
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
America
        

        

        
XX
        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Japan
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
France
        
X
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
India
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Persia
        

        

        

        
X
        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Aztecs
        
XX
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Zululand
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

    
    

        
Iroquois
        

        

        

        

        
X
        

        

        

    

    
    

        
England
        

        

        

        

        

        

        

        

    

        

[mtgillespie]

MY EYES! MY EYES!

[Spiffor]

1450 BC

Possible trades involving gold :

Greeks :
World map for World map + 220 gold + 5 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 168 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Aztecs :
nil

French :
World Map for World map + 192 gold
MapMaking for World map + 130 gold
MapMaking for 195 gold

Germans :
World Map : impossible
MapMaking for World map + 174 gold
MapMaking for 218 gold

Iroquois : nil

America :
World Map for World Map + 228 gold + 6 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 171 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Rome :
WorldMap : impossible
MapMaking for World Map + 207 gold
MapMaking for 218 gold

England :
World Map for World Map + 223 gold + 3 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 173 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Russia :
nil

Babylon :
nil

Persia : nil

However, the "nil" civilizations will have maps available once we get mapmaking. We could trade our world map for Russia's and Iroquois'(they are expansionistic, and thus must have interetsing maps). With Persians and Babylonians, we could trade their maps for mathematics.

My trading suggestion is as follows :
- buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
- trade world maps with Russia and with Iroquois. I doubt they already know the map of everybody, since they don't have money to buy all maps
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
- sell this extended world map to Romans and Americans if they have money, before the Greeks do.

[Inverse Icarus]

i refuse to support any plan that reveals our map at this stage of the game.

if that is an island we see, we will be the soul colonizers of it. the second the AI sees it, they'll go there with their galleys that dont sink. we should keep it for ourselves.

[Inverse Icarus]

and you should note after you give away your map, the value of it goes down.

[Spiffor]

Then we can get MapMaking from the Greeks for 5gpt and 120 gold. This trade will give us enough lump gold to pay for some maps (hopefully)
However, without trading our map, we'll never have enough money to get the maps of everyone.

Last thing we could do is forgetting mapmaking for now, and buy the Greek map for 7 gpt + 226 gold. After all, they must have gathered tons of info for such a price.

But I still think we could trade maps anyways. In my past Civ3 experience, I came to the strong belief that the AI knows the map beforehand (how many times did I see foreign galleys going exactly towards another shore they couldn't see, in my mod where galleys have more moves ?)

[Aggie]

I agree with uber, we really shouldn't give our map away yet, lets at least until we see if that island can be useful
Aggie

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by UberKruX
i refuse to support any plan that reveals our map at this stage of the game.

if that is an island we see, we will be the soul colonizers of it. the second the AI sees it, they'll go there with their galleys that dont sink. we should keep it for ourselves.

Food for thought.
What is the likelihood another civ has spotted the (island)? How long would we guess we have before someone beats us to it? We are in the middle of a military buildup that (I assume) we do not want to postpone. What are the odds this land remains undetected long enough for us to exploit it?

[Robber Baron]

Another thought:
If this is rich land, we should be in a good position to exert cultural pull over it, even if we find ourselves among company by the time we manage to plant a city there. Particularly if we keep our capital at the southern tip of the penninsula (unlikely, perhaps, but an option to consider if: 1) there is rich land down there; and 2) our expansion northward gets checked by military setbacks.

[Aggie]

May I suggest we do the trades that don't involve the world map. Then perhaps consider our territory map. It is soooo much better talking about civ instead of disputed votes.
Aggie

[Spiffor]

Sorry, but as long as we don't trade for mapmaking, I can't work on any deal like "your world map for my territory map".

Maybe the better deal would be not to trade our world map with the Persians and French, as they're the ones most likely to settle the isle. The others are too far away and have something else to do with their settlers.

[Aggie]

I think I might have been unclear, what i meant was that we do the trades for map making and then the world map buy trades. Here is how it now is;

buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
- trade world maps with Russia and with Iroquois. I doubt they already know the map of everybody, since they don't have money to buy all maps
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
- sell this extended world map to Romans and Americans if they have money, before the Greeks do.

Lets change to
buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
-
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
-

Then we can see what deals our territory maps can get us, since we have a small territory that is already mostly known.
Aggie

[Spiffor]

Aggie : your idea is interesting.
We don't have enough money to buy the map of the Greeks after buying mapmaking for money only (to the French, who make a discount)
However, we can trade Russia's map for Mapmaking, 4gpt and 23 gold
Aztecs' map for MapMaking, 5gpt and 25 gold
Babylon's map for Mapmaking, Mathematics and 16 gold
Iroquois' map for Mapmaking, 3 gpt and 30 gold
Persia's map for Mapmaking.

These deals don't take tech devaluation into account, and we'll have to throw even more money in, once we sell mapmaking once. We'll have some maps, but not all of them.
The only "free" map (in terms of money) would be the Persian one, which only requires mapmaking. However, Persia will not trade its map for mathematics alone.

(note : to design this project, I had to play ahead by buying MapMaking to the French for 195 gold. I did not accept any deals involving maps. thus, I don't have more geographical knowledge than any of you)