Constitutional Convention

[atawa]

Originally posted by Space05us
by the time the rules are made everyone will understand, it's not explainable it just happens.

True, lets start with a minimum of rules and make new ones when needed.

[civman2000]

BURN IT! (sorry I only read the 1st 10 posts so i may have missed some important changes)

It's way too specific and strict. Can't we trust the peopls and our leaders to be able to function with just a basic understanding of how it works?

BURN IT!!

I hereby announce the founding of the AAACC3 (AAAC of Civ 3)!

[punkbass2000]

It's not an issue of trust, it's just so we have a well established means of getting things done when there are discrepancies. Otherwise rules and such will be very arbitrary.

[civman2000]

ooops...looks like space05us has already made all my arguments...

punkbadass2000: Even if a constitution is technically malleable, it has the psychological effect of decreasing the popularity of rule changes.

BURN IT! (maybe I should add that to my sig)

[civman2000]

Look at the civ2 apolyton game (without constitution) and the civfanatics civ2 game (with very detailed constitution) and see the difference! I haven't looked at the cfc one much, but there are tons of topped threads (last time a looked), overorganization, and an overall lowered level of fun!

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by civman2000
ooops...looks like space05us has already made all my arguments...

punkbadass2000: Even if a constitution is technically malleable, it has the psychological effect of decreasing the popularity of rule changes.

That's really more of a problem with the people than with the constitution itself, IMO.

[civman2000]

SO??? Do we go out of our way to FORCE the people into something??? Is a constitution more important than the people????

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by civman2000
SO??? Do we go out of our way to FORCE the people into something??? Is a constitution more important than the people????

I find this statement amusing, given your stance on the save game.

[civman2000]

What do you mean? Supporting harsh penalties for playing ahead is common sense! I say that if it's a newbie they should be given a second chance, but if anyone knowingly ruins the game somewhat, they should be punished!

[punkbass2000]

The Consitution is for the benefit of the people. It clearly states the rules of the game, preventing people from breaking laws unbeknowst to them. Otherwise anyone could do anything. You propose that no one should be able to play ahead and should be banned if they do. How do you propose to make this law without constitution? Would prefer if we called it a Code of Laws?

[Pythagoras]

You would be foolish to start this without some sort of agreed upon rules of conduct. Some sort of primary organizational document. No you cant trust people, trust me (lol) I know. When someone screws up you will want to say "You agreed to these rules, you violated this rule, sorry buddy but according to the rules youre out."

The bottom line is even if these rules are 'obvious' and 'common sense' to you, they might not be so 'obvious' and 'common sense' to someone else. You need to codify them, even if it is all stuff everyone agrees is common sense, you need a document.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Pythagoras
You would be foolish to start this without some sort of agreed upon rules of conduct. Some sort of primary organizational document. No you cant trust people, trust me (lol) I know. When someone screws up you will want to say "You agreed to these rules, you violated this rule, sorry buddy but according to the rules youre out."

The bottom line is even if these rules are 'obvious' and 'common sense' to you, they might not be so 'obvious' and 'common sense' to someone else. You need to codify them, even if it is all stuff everyone agrees is common sense, you need a document.

Couldn't (and didn't) have said it better myself.

[civman2000]

NO! The rules of conduct are the rules of apolyton itself! Other than playing ahead and maybe one or two otehr things, any "code of conduct" would be no more than a restating of the apolyton faq! Those few things can be understood, as they were in the civ2 game, and very briefly explained if anyone has question!

[MrWhereItsAt]

In the Civ2 game, we have overall (after much debate) decided on no constitution. We do, however, have a set of rules to follow. These are simple, to the point and relatively easy to follow, unlike a Constitution the size of skywalker's is (sorry man, I just don't have the patience to read it )

These are our rules:

Responsibilities of Cabinet

Prez:

Plays the game
If supplied with conflicting advice/polls and there is no time/way to straighten this out, the Prez makes the final decisions.
If the matter is urgent enough (eg imminent invasion/loos of capital city), the Prez is expected to seek help from Ministers/the Public and NOT go it alone.
Should post a turn-by-turn account of their play (nothing too detailed, just major troop movements, conquests etc, Wonder/technology news...)
Gets to name cities

VP:

Posts nomination thread
Posts election polls
Becomes Minister if that Minister is absent for 24hr
Becomes Prez in event of abdication - holds position until next elections

SMC:

Military polls, exploration

Sci:

Setting science rate (in conjunction with Trade Advisor)
Tech targets (main and secondary for just in case situations where we can't go for the one we want) - should be for a tree of several techs so we don't have to stop every time we get one.

Trade:

All uses of caravans (Wonders, trade with ourselves/others, rushing other things)
Setting tax rate (in conjunction with Science Advisor)

City Planner:

What to do with workers and when to build them
Build queues. When polling on possible build queues, the Minister decides the most important ones for himself (in consultation with public/Council if necessary) and poll only on these important ones
Unhappiness Issues

Imperial Exploration:

Where to build cities
Cultivation (improving terrain)

Deputy Ministers:

Do not get the save game.
May be required to take over if the actual Minister disappears (will be decided when/if it happens)

Historian:

Writes a narrative of all that happens during a term (see -Jrabbit's excellent ones for a good indicator of what you are to do) with excessive smilies (important! :doitnow: ) and must be prepared to be contacted for news to put on the Apolyton Civ2 news site (has happened twice)

Foreign:

All foreign affairs, use of diplomats/spies and government change


General Cabinet

Each person may hold 1 post at a time.
Cabinet gets the save.
Absolutely NO play to be done by any but the Prez
NOBODY is allowed to check the map by cheating or playing into the future for an advantage
NO reloading for favourable outcomes of huts, battles etc.

Everybody

Anyone can be a member of Apolytonia.
All are allowed (and encouraged ) to vote on polls
Any concerns should be posted or PMed to Ministers - this IS a Democratic game!

Elections

Elections end of every month.
Each citizen may be in the Cabinet for four terms in a row only - need a responsibility-free month before they can run again. The only exception is if there is no other candidate for a position in an election - this should be considered last resort material
Self Nominations OK
Once elected (polls close and Cabinet names are posted in High Council thread by the Prez) Ministers must PM their emails to the Prez

Our initial setup

Normal start
Multiplayer Gold Edition
Deity
Raging Hordes
Destroyed Civ restart
Normal Map
Leader name: Fearless Leader

United Apolyton - Dark Blue colour

Science rate at 60%


And that is all. Everything else has been dealt with and will be dealt with as the issue arises. I understand that there will certainly be a little more than this for the Civ3 game (due to the increased complexity), but not that much.

We need not overcomplicate the game in the early stages. I agree with a "constitution" like the post of UberKrux on page 1, that details what the Council does, plus maybe one or two other points.

Perhaps we can vote the Ministers in, and the first thing they should do is think of all the things they want clarified (hypothetical example: who controls exploration - Minister of War or City Planner ) and poll on them. Then, once all that we need to know is clear, we can start. As the game progresses things will come up, and it would be expected that the Prez stops the game so that decisions can be made then and there.

[Jon Shafer]

I think that's good enough for a Constitution.
We don't want this to be bogged down with rules... anything can be decided by a majority vote, why not allow that to take precedence over some list of rules?