Israel civ

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
The Hebrews have had huge cultural impacts on the world. Islam and Christianity, the 2 biggest religions in the world, both have roots in Judaism.

*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough*

What? I have to remember that actually hebrews aren't christians and looking what is happening in the eastern mediterranean area, not very islmaic too .

Read the last discovers, seems that Jesus where influenced by TWO older religions, one is Judaism (of course), but the other stays more in a secondary plane, and which is it? Is the Aton egyptian monotheist cult.

Read the religious system that is the basis of christianism and islam, and is by far closer to Aton cult than judaism (but but but... The ceremonial system is totally judaic).

[thinkingamer]

For the about 2000 years Jews didn't live in Israel. Instead, most of them lived in Europe (i think this is the reason why they are mostly "Whites"). Therefore, IMHO i think there shouldn't be an Israel Civ, but every European civ should have a certain percentage of Jewish population.

[Solomyr]

thinkingamer,

about Jews being mostly "white", that's pretty much an american an European sterotype. admittitly, that sterotype exists for a good reason, most of the famous Jews people have heard of are from the US or Europe. but a huge percentage of the Jewish world has always lived around the mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel, and the rest of the middle east. you don't hear about them, becasue like the rest of the Arab world they were living in, there has been very little progress scientific, philosophical, or political progress in the last 400 years.

i agree that an Israeli civ isn't the best way to represent the Jews in Civ 3. the personlly, i think the expansion civ should have been called the Jews, but that was voted down, so it was called the Hebrews. and the scientific, cultrual, political , and theological contributions of Jews throughout histroy should not be scoffed at.

[Kingof the Apes]

Originally posted by XarXo


*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough*

What? I have to remember that actually hebrews aren't christians and looking what is happening in the eastern mediterranean area, not very islmaic too .

Read the last discovers, seems that Jesus where influenced by TWO older religions, one is Judaism (of course), but the other stays more in a secondary plane, and which is it? Is the Aton egyptian monotheist cult.

Read the religious system that is the basis of christianism and islam, and is by far closer to Aton cult than judaism (but but but... The ceremonial system is totally judaic).

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all share the same old Testament; in fact all were known in the Ottoman empire as 'people of the book'.
All three religions are closely related, Islam and Christanity being 'spin-offs.'
AFAIK, the arabs had no problem with the jews until they moved back in in the 40's.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
I believe it is the Hebrews who first came up with the concept of 'monotheism'.

most of the Jewish religion was borrowed or heavily influenced by what the Israelites were exposed to during their exile in Babylon.

Since most Christians cosider themselves monotheisitic depsite also believing in a trinity of supernatural personalities, it could be argued that hindus are also monotheistic since all their gods are just different aspects or avatars of the parent god. Hinduism predates the Hebrew religion.

[LionQ]

Oh, is that so? I didn't know that, but I think your right, TacticalGrace. But the Hebrews were indeed early with the concept of monotheism.

[Dauphin]

You can claim science to be monotheistic too. The search for a single theory of everything from which all other theories flow. The reason for such a belief in a single overarching principal is based on the culture of monotheistic beleifs.

Science still has many of its own reasons to believe in such a unified system though.

[Meshelic]

The Palestinian people were not a 'people' until Jewish settlers began arriving in the area known as Palestine during the 1920's-1950's. Technically speaking, along bloodlines, the Palestinian name is a made up name for displaced Arabs, who are Syrian in nature who in turn are mostly displaced due to their nomadic nature. The words "Palestinian People" were not used (or taken seriously when used) until Yasser Arafat came along and caught the eye of our media.

Hence Palestine.

But hey don't take my word for it, look up the history yourself.

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by Solomyr
thinkingamer,

about Jews being mostly "white", that's pretty much an american an European sterotype. admittitly, that sterotype exists for a good reason, most of the famous Jews people have heard of are from the US or Europe. but a huge percentage of the Jewish world has always lived around the mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel, and the rest of the middle east. you don't hear about them, becasue like the rest of the Arab world they were living in, there has been very little progress scientific, philosophical, or political progress in the last 400 years.

Hmmm... im sorry about the "most of them lived in Europe" part, but weren't Jews also a minority in mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel?

Im not sure, but if that is true then there shouldn't be an Israel Civ, but every European civ AND mediterrainian, north africa, what is now israel should have a certain percentage of Jewish population.

[Zero]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I definitely support Palestinians having their own state, but I think a condition should be the elimination of terrorist activites.

I dunno isn't that a bit of a catch-22? They bomb cause they want their own state, we will give them if they don't bomb. Somone will have to break the loop if THAT is the case.

For those of you who get confused on the difference between Terrorism and Guerilla Warfare. Guerilla Warfare relates to atttacking enemy military and supplies. Terrorism relates to intentially murdering civilians. Occasionally a guerilla tactic or military operation will kill civillians, the question is whether or not the civillians were the intended target as war is a gruesome and dangerous business.
A suicide bomber blowing up a building on a military base is technically guerilla warfare. Driving a bus into a marine barraks is technically guerilla warfare. Blowing up a bus or convenience store is terrorism. Driving tanks into a civillian housing area and tearing it down because one person who used to live near there became a suicide bomber is terrorism.

True, Couldnt agree more about guerilla war and terrorism thing but ever since WW II, military and civilian personnel line has been blurred. It used to be that civilians could be considered as not involved in fighting, but modern thinking is different now. WW II introduced bombing civilian cities as tactics to demoralize, disrupt production and cease support by civilains. Civilians are vital part of warfare. In democratic nations, is for them the military is fighting and even if it is not a democratic country the citizens are the ones who are supporting the army, feeding, clothing and making bullets for them.

Flying a plane into a skyscraper to kill unsuspecting children and infants because you are too cowardly to fight the infants in hand to hand combat is DEFINITELY terroism, and in my opinion terrorists have given up all rights to humanity and civilization, should be shot, and their body left to rot in a gutter somewhere. Our civilization coddles terrorists far too much.

Like I said above, its sick and cruel, but it is fair game. They feel that they are at war with us. It shouldnt have been too dificult to realize our civilians were a target. It has been for a decade and there were attempts. Of course we can invade them like we did... that's fair game too. Whether these things are morally right is kinda hazy. But thats how the modern war game goes...

Anyway, ON TOPIC, as soon as I get the upgrades for my computer I'll finish the David Ben-Gurion leaderhead set for Israel. Someone has requested a Sadam Husein leaderset that I'm thinking of making.

Cool~

[Zero]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
You can claim science to be monotheistic too. The search for a single theory of everything from which all other theories flow. The reason for such a belief in a single overarching principal is based on the culture of monotheistic beleifs.

Science still has many of its own reasons to believe in such a unified system though.

actually scientists would disagree. As you said science search, religion believes (faith) what is to be true. Religion knows what is true, Science does not know, but are searching to know.

As Hawking puts it, Science can lead to either of three conclusion

1 - Physical law is unified by one universal theroy
2 - Physical law is divided by many theory that encompasses different aspects of universe.
3 - Physical law cannot be defined by science.

Scientists like to BELIEVE option 1 is the case, and they pursue option 1 to be true, So you are right in a sense, but I don't think a muslim would say, "Well there is only one Allah, but there is a case that there maybe many allahs or no allah but buddah"

Also, Science is still not unified yet, The 'perfect wedding' of relativy and quantum mech. does not exist yet. We may find the answers (possibly in string), but for now you could say we are polytheistic

So its still abit different from religion.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Cidifer
Saying Isreal should have a civ is kind of dumb, but not entirly.

1st of all Palistine wasn't a country when Jewish people came there during and after WWII it was still a British mandate, it's similar to India and Pakistan arguing over Kashmir (ok I think I probably have a bunch of spelling errors) which is why, as usual, the British are to blame. When their empire started crumbling they divided up the old territories in really strang manners rather then finding out what the people living thier wanted and have left conflict in many places tp this day.

Didn't bible talk about palestinians having a grand kingdom before they God decided to chase them away and make rom for his chosen people?

I think US mandated that Israel be established as a nation for jews and bunch of UN jumped in and said 'great idea'. I''m not sure. But US had something to do with it is the only thing I remember.

Sorry for triple posting, but they were replies to different people and the text was rather long anyway.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Calc II
Scientists like to BELIEVE option 1 is the case, and they pursue option 1 to be true, So you are right in a sense, but I don't think a muslim would say, "Well there is only one Allah, but there is a case that there maybe many allahs or no allah but buddah"

Also, Science is still not unified yet, The 'perfect wedding' of relativy and quantum mech. does not exist yet. We may find the answers (possibly in string), but for now you could say we are polytheistic

So its still abit different from religion.

The point remains that most scientists believe that there is probably a single root law that is as yet unknown. And I am saying that that is as much to do with monotheistic culture as it is to do with scientific reasoning.

If we lived in a society where polytheism was more prevalent than monotheism, our science would reflect that, by prefering to believe in option 2.

[Dauphin]

Anyway the point I was trying to make was that just as culture affects religion (in that Hebrews were influenced by Babylonians), so too is science affected by culture (in that most scientific discovery in the past 400 yrs has been influenced by Judo-Christian cultures)

[Solomyr]

thinkingamer-

no worries about the "mostly white" thing. indeed, the Jews were a minority throuhout histroy every place they lived, exception being anceint and modern israel and Hollywood just kidding

Calc II-

it IS the case that the palestinians want their own state, and WILL have it when they stop bombing. the olso process wasn't the grestest, but it was a hell of a lot better than what they have now. many, many people in the Pro-Israel communities in the US completely sympathis with the palestinians and there hopes and desire for self determination. but there is no way that is going to happen if they want self determination at the price of Israel's safety. Why is Israel the only contry in the world that has to defend its right to exist. no one questions the right of China or Morroco to exist, why does Israel get questioned?

and one last thing. the Bible, well, i'm not sure which we are talking about. Palestine is a Roman bastardization of Phillistine. After the Jews revolted the thrid and final time and Jerusalem was crushed in 70 CE (AD), the romans renamed Judea to Palestine to servre jewish connection with the land. they, like Hilter 2000 years later, have failed