Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part6: Zulus, Iroquois, England

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by molly bloom



No Welsh ancestry, I take it?

I have Welsh and Irish ancestry, in addition to my English.

My point being that many places in Wales were settled by the English, and many of the 'Welsh' there are actually of English descent. The border of England and Wales is arbitrary and there are places in Wales that are very English in style - going to Wrexham is not like going to a foreign country, going to Edinburgh or Belfast is. Historically it is possible to conceive of Wales being assimilated into England, just as Cornwall was.

Also, people in Northern Ireland are not English, their only links to Britain are due to the Scots, and not the English.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


I have Welsh and Irish ancestry, in addition to my English.

My point being that many places in Wales were settled by the English, and many of the 'Welsh' there are actually of English descent. The border of England and Wales is arbitrary and there are places in Wales that are very English in style - going to Wrexham is not like going to a foreign country, going to Edinburgh or Belfast is. Historically it is possible to conceive of Wales being assimilated into England, just as Cornwall was.

Also, people in Northern Ireland are not English, their only links to Britain are due to the Scots, and not the English.

With the exception of course, that Welsh is still a spoken living language, and Wales a separate country from England- unlike Kernow/Cornwall and Cornish.
There is of course, a Welsh Assembly, and a Church of Wales, amongst other defining national differences.
The point I'm trying to make is, that in Austria, until the revolutions of the 19th century, German culture and civilization and language were the dominant culture- I doubt any Viennese were punished for speaking German, as some of my relatives were for speaking Welsh, rather than English.

http://www.britannia.com/wales/lit/intro.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/davies/

http://www.llgc.org.uk/ymgyrchu/Iaith/TyngedIaith/index-e.htm

The situation in Wales was slightly different, and even as recently as the 19th Century, a majority of the people living in Wales spoke Welsh as a first language.

As for colonization of Northern Ireland- three separate main plantations occurred- the Ulster Plantation, the Cromwellian Plantation and the Williamite Plantation. The influx and colonizers included both Anglican ethnic English as well as Calvinist Presbyterian Scots, and followed a pattern similar to that in the American colonies, where the most productive land was taken away from its original occupiers/owners, both the Gaelic Irish and the Norman Irish gentry. Having defeated the Scots in war, Cromwell is hardly likely to have rewarded them with a colony. The City of Londonderry/Derry/Doire, as one name implies, owes its existence to the City of London and London's Livery companies, its Guildhall bearing a striking resemblance to the same building in the City of London.

[TacticalGrace]

Re: England

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
London
Cambridge

Isn't Cambridge in London?

or have I been watching too much big brother

[Wernazuma III]

Well, I don't know if Cambridge is part of London nowadays. But if it is, then only because of 20th century incredible city growth. Historically, it's an own urban entity, so it's in the list.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Well, I don't know if Cambridge is part of London nowadays. But if it is, then only because of 20th century incredible city growth. Historically, it's an own urban entity, so it's in the list.

Wernazuma, I think you have fallen prey to English/British humour. Cambridge is still some way from London, through very picturesque countryside, with plentiful sites of historic interest on the way. There's no Tube train there, but the regular train system used to be known as 'The Fornicator', as it allowed staff and students to spend a weekend/evening/afternoon triste in London and still get back in time for lectures/seminars.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Well, I don't know if Cambridge is part of London nowadays. But if it is, then only because of 20th century incredible city growth. Historically, it's an own urban entity, so it's in the list.

err... sorry it was a joke.

to explain, see this extract from the UK's recent Big Brother 3:

-------

Unbelievable but true: the Spencer and Jade conversation

This chat started when Jade asked Spencer what he did for a living…
Spencer: 'You know you see those people in Venice standing on the back of gondolas, pushing it around?'
Jade: 'They don't do that on the Thames though, do they?'
Spencer: 'No. I don't work on the Thames. I work in Cambridge.'
Jade: 'Is there not the Thames there?'
Spencer: 'No!'
Jade: 'Is there a river called the Cambridge river?'
Spencer: 'Yeah, it's called the Cam.'
Jade: 'Really? You swear? I only thought there was the Thames. I thought that was the main one in London.'
Spencer: 'It is. I don't live in London.'
Jade: 'I'm confused. I thought Cambridge was in London. I knew Birmingham weren't in London.'
Spencer: 'Would you like to go and tell the group what you just said?'
Jade: 'No...'
Spencer: 'Cambridge is a city.'
Jade: 'But we've got a city in London.'
Spencer: 'Yes. This city is called London. And there's different parts of it. Cambridge is a city.'
Jade: 'Of where? Kent?'
Jade: 'Well England's a country, London's a city, Bermondsey's just a throw-off. Now where are you? What's your country, and what's your things?'
Spencer: 'What country am I from? England. The city is called Cambridge, the county Cambridgeshire.'
Jade: 'So not Kent then?'
Spencer: 'Nooooo… The region is called East Anglia.'
Jade: 'East Angular? That's abroad. Is there not a place called East Angular abroad?'
Spencer: 'Jade, have you been taking the stupid pills again?'
Jade: 'Every time people tell me they work in East Angular, I actually think they're talking about near Tunisia and places like that. Am I thick?'
Spencer: 'Well, I hate to say it, but you are.'
Jade: 'Cos Scottish and Irish and all that comes under England, doesn't it?'
Spencer: 'No… They come under Great Britain. Scotland and Wales have their own flags. Northern Ireland and Ireland are different.'
Jade: 'So they're not together? Where's Berlin?'
Spencer: 'Germany…'

[Dauphin]

Jade was dumb, but half the time I hope that she was just acting. Having never actually watched it, but exposed to it by the media ( ), I can only hope.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Jade was dumb, but half the time I hope that she was just acting. Having never actually watched it, but exposed to it by the media ( ), I can only hope.

That remains one of the worlds greatest mysteries.

It will be the subject of Discovery Channel documentaries. "Is it possible for someone to be that ignorant?"