Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part6: Zulus, Iroquois, England

[Lord Merciless]

More English GLs:

William the Conqueror
Richard the Lionhearted
Edward I
Edward III
The Black Prince
Henry VIII
Francis Drake
Duke of Marlborough
Nelson
Churchill
Montgomery

[Wernazuma III]

Updated. I removed Belfast. Which else to remove?

[GoodFella]

Have you considered adding Metacomet (a.k.a. King Phillip) to the list of Iriquois leaders?

[Dauphin]

William the Conqueror is contentious, even if you say he founded the "new" England, rather than just conquered/acquired England.

Also with regards Coeur de Leon...

Who hasn't heard of Richard the Lionheart...soldier, poet and beloved English king of the Robin Hood legends, plotted against by foul Prince John? During his lifetime, he truly cast a larger-than-life shadow. So fierce a Crusader was England's Richard I, that he became the Middle East's equivalent of the "bogey man." Syrian mothers warned naughty children to bed lest King Richard come and get them.

Richard's popularity with the Saxons and peasantry in England, however, probably rested less on his fairness and more on the fact that he was hardly ever there. During his 10-year reign, it is estimated that he spent but 6 months in England. In fact, it is doubtful he ever spoke a word of English

[Dauphin]

Oops, read wrong post.

[Wernazuma III]

Exactly as Sagacious Dolphin states. These are the reasons why I didn't put Richard and William in the list.

Goodfella: Ask Ribannah, he did the Iroquois list. I'm completely blank with knowledge there...


Edit: Put is the word... <-- dumb me

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by GoodFella
Have you considered adding Metacomet (a.k.a. King Phillip) to the list of Iriquois leaders?

Metacomet (1638-1676) was Algonquin, not Iroquois.

[jasonbry]

Maybe add Tecumseh to the Iroquois Great leader list. He fought for an Independant Michigan for the Iroquois an Canadian Sovernty( bad spelling ) from America.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Updated. I removed Belfast. Which else to remove?

I think if you're going to call the civilization England/English, then be logical and remove the Welsh cities and Belfast. If the civ. were Britain/British, or a variant thereof, then the cities outside the geo-political borders of 'England' could remain. Given that the area around Swansea has a higher proportion of Welsh speakers than in other parts of South Wales or the Welsh marches, this seems particularly illogical.

[Dauphin]

Politically and economically Wales and England are almost inextricably linked as a single unit.

I'm sure many Welsh would feel agrieved at being called English, but there are enough 'English' things about Wales to justify the cities being included as English cities. (As it is justifiable to include Austrian place names as German)

I wouldn't complain if they were withdrawn from the list though.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by jasonbry
Maybe add Tecumseh to the Iroquois Great leader list. He fought for an Independant Michigan for the Iroquois an Canadian Sovernty( bad spelling ) from America.

Tecumseh was Shawnee, not Iroquois.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Politically and economically Wales and England are almost inextricably linked as a single unit.

I'm sure many Welsh would feel agrieved at being called English, but there are enough 'English' things about Wales to justify the cities being included as English cities. (As it is justifiable to include Austrian place names as German)

I wouldn't complain if they were withdrawn from the list though.

No Welsh ancestry, I take it?

If we were to use your reasoning then at least one city in Northern Ireland would have to be included- Londonderry/Derry/Doire, whose links with the City of London (and by extension England) are obvious from its former/current name.

I think the rationale behind including Austrian city names in a German civ list is slightly different- the cultural sphere of the German peoples as a whole, would stretch to the Volga, the Baltic and the Black Sea
and then you have the House of Habsburg link, with the almost continuous occupancy of the Holy Roman Empire's crown from the 15th century onwards by an Austrian based German speaking member of the House of Habsburg.

If we're going to call the civ. English, fine, have English cities. If it were British/Britain, that's a different kettle of poissons, as the name has a longer pedigree, and more relevance when applied to the Welsh. The problem for me has always been that the sloppy/inexact use of English for British and England for Great Britain or the United Kingdom manages to exclude a large number of people of non-Germanic origin and a great deal of history and culture in isles not originating with the Germanic invaders.

Of course this all began because of the erroneous assumption on Sid's/Firaxis's part that English/British were interchangeable, which of course they aren't.

In any case, there are enough towns/cities of importance and size within the boundaries of England to fill Wernazuma's list.

[Wernazuma III]

It's getting confusing. Is my list OK as it is in my edited original post?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
It's getting confusing. Is my list OK as it is in my edited original post?

Just take out Swansea, Wrexham and Newport. As I said, the area around Swansea has a higher proportion of native Welsh speakers than elsewhere in South Wales (in comparison with, say Cardiff or Chepstow/ Cas Gwent), so that would make little sense. I suspect the link in the atlas was to do with population figures, possibly, as there seems to be a preponderance of industrial era cities in the list, with a bias towards the north. One glaring omission- Chester, Deva to the Romans, home of the 20th legion, Valeria Victrix. Can't remember if you included Lincoln, either.

[Wernazuma III]

I've done the changes