Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part 4: Egypt, Babylonia, China

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Except when said text decribes in exact distances the lay of the
land. Fu Sang being a poetic name for Japan was not claimed until the 18th century, yet the name popped up in records 4000 years older than that.

So what? If a Chinese text mentions a land 10000~ miles south of China, we must assume it's Antarctica even though there's no conceivable way to get there with ancient technology?

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't plan on settling there, and there was no agriculture yet in Mexico.
Otoh, there WAS rice elsewhere in the Americas later.

Rice was carried over after Columbus.
Besides, no matter where anyone is going, they've gotta bring FOOD with them. Columbus brought wheat and horses with him, and brought turkeys and tobacco back. It's a simple matter of survival and profit.

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't plan on settling in Mexico, and turkeys were not domesticated at the time.

Again, the sailors would need some form of food.

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't carry these diseases. Remember that the Amerinds came from Siberia, so why wouldn't they already know these diseases if the Chinese did, too?

No. Most of epidemic diseases people have today (smallpox etc) came originally from large domesticated animals, like cattle and sheep. The Amerinds would not have any exposure to such diseases, but they would if they were visited by Old World peoples.
Besides, by your logic, the Amerinds would have had a full dose of Old World diseases, and thus wouldn't have minded the Spanish germs at all, right?

Actually there are. Only, in contrast to what we are used to, equal words means equal glyphs to the Chinese, rather than equal sounds. The Amerind glyphs closely resemble the original Chinese glyphs.

Glyphs don't prove anything. The Egyptian glyph for bird looks like the Chinese one too. What does prove something is large numbers of shared spoken words. The English word "algebra" comes from an Arabic word pronounced "al-jabr", though they are written in very different ways. That tells us something about contact between Europe and the Middle East. But no spoken word has been proven to be a link between China and Mexico.

Who says the crossed the pacific? Anyway, the records are in the Imperial Archives in Beijing.

Pan'gus creation of the world with an ax can be found in the Imperial Archives too. Perhaps we should take that as fact?

The Shang connection is doubtful, the claim is that some refugees made it to the Americas (California rather than Mexico) when that dynasty came to an end.
China was supposedly better equipped for such undertakings in the era before the Shang dynasty.
There are also the legends told by the Amerinds about a people from the west (their west) visiting them long before the white men came, in addition to the Chinese historic records. The Olmec statues, depicting kings with African features, are of course a link to Africa, not to China.

Again, the same point. What we see are tales from oral traditions plus similarities in art. What about the real things archeology looks for - the pottery, the plants, the animals, the ruins, the tombs, the Jiaguwen? (No, not "similar glyphs", I mean full fledged Chinese Turtleshell Script.)

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
If a Chinese text mentions a land 10000~ miles south of China, we must assume it's Antarctica even though there's no conceivable way to get there with ancient technology?

If it describes the exact lay of the land, then you'd have to reconsider your thoughts on ancient tech.

Besides, no matter where anyone is going, they've gotta bring FOOD with them.

That doesn't imply that this 'anyone' is also going to grow his home food at the 'where'. The Chinese expeditions, in contrast to the later European ones, had no intent of settling, trade or plunder, they were exploratory only (and the later ones to spread Buddhism). One does not find Chinese lifestock in Africa either, or any wildebeests in China, even though they set up many embassies along the coast.

Columbus brought wheat and horses with him, and brought turkeys and tobacco back. It's a simple matter of survival and profit.

That is western thinking.

Most of epidemic diseases people have today (smallpox etc) came originally from large domesticated animals, like cattle and sheep. The Amerinds would not have any exposure to such diseases, but they would if they were visited by Old World peoples.

Not if that happened before those diseases had affected humans. But it could also be that the Chinese did bring older diseases, and many Amerinds died, but nobody recorded this.

The Egyptian glyph for bird looks like the Chinese one too.

My guess is that they both look like a bird.
However, the rest of the Amerind glyphs look just like the Chinese, too, which is not the case for the Egyptians. In fact,
when these glyphs were presented to Chinese experts without the info that they came from America, these experts immediately recognized them as a Chinese dialect.

What does prove something is large numbers of shared spoken words. The English word "algebra" comes from an Arabic word pronounced "al-jabr", though they are written in very different ways.

Again, western thinking.
But, one word (there'll be a few more, OK), as a result of many, many centuries of intense contact. Wow, I'm impressed.

Pan'gus creation of the world with an ax can be found in the Imperial Archives too. Perhaps we should take that as fact?

Did it come with exact measurements of the size of the axe, which was then found to match the axe found on the bottom of the Dead Sea in 1994?

What about the real things archeology looks for - the pottery, the plants, the animals, the ruins, the tombs, the Jiaguwen?

Since the pottery didn't differ from the native pottery (on which the glyphs were first written), that one's out.
The plants and animals I dismissed above. Besides, there were no Viking plants and animals found in the Americas either, even though the Vikings had several settlements, something the Chinese never had (hence: no ruins or tombs).
However, archeologists did find a catch of old Chinese coins, and anchor stones equal to the ones the Chinese used.

Now I have a question.

Why is it so hard to believe that the Chinese reached the Americas, while (1) nobody denies that they made much longer journeys in the opposite direction, and (2) they could easily have known about the Americas from their Siberian and Tunguz neighbours who went there before them?

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ribannah

If it describes the exact lay of the land, then you'd have to reconsider your thoughts on ancient tech.

Alright... quote me the part that describes the Yucatan.

That doesn't imply that this 'anyone' is also going to grow his home food at the 'where'. The Chinese expeditions, in contrast to the later European ones, had no intent of settling, trade or plunder, they were exploratory only (and the later ones to spread Buddhism). One does not find Chinese lifestock in Africa either, or any wildebeests in China, even though they set up many embassies along the coast.

Wildebeests were not domesticated, so it would be pointless to bring them along for food.
Besides, Zheng He did bring giraffes back to the Chinese court. That's not hard. Why isn't there a single pig, chicken or cow in Mexico until Columbus?

That is western thinking.

Yes. We easterners can survive by eating rock and drinking sea water.

Not if that happened before those diseases had affected humans. But it could also be that the Chinese did bring older diseases, and many Amerinds died, but nobody recorded this.

That's a good point.

My guess is that they both look like a bird.
However, the rest of the Amerind glyphs look just like the Chinese, too, which is not the case for the Egyptians.

Just like?! Show me.

In fact,
when these glyphs were presented to Chinese experts without the info that they came from America, these experts immediately recognized them as a Chinese dialect.

If this is really as widely received by all Chinese experts as you think it to be, it would have become an enormous media event by now.
However, since Jiaguwen consisted mainly of scratching-like pictures, I doubt that the Chinese were alone in coming up with something like it.

Again, western thinking.
But, one word (there'll be a few more, OK), as a result of many, many centuries of intense contact. Wow, I'm impressed.

The Europeans and Arabs traded immense numbers of words. English received "admiral", "alcohol", "alkaline", among others. Spanish, I heard, is stuffed full of Arab words.
If the Mexicans and Chinese had close enough contact to trade writing systems, they would doubtlessly have traded vocabulary too. But there is not a trace of that anywhere.

Did it come with exact measurements of the size of the axe, which was then found to match the axe found on the bottom of the Dead Sea in 1994?

Did the Shanhaijing include a geographical map of MesoAmerica?

Since the pottery didn't differ from the native pottery (on which the glyphs were first written), that one's out.
The plants and animals I dismissed above. Besides, there were no Viking plants and animals found in the Americas either, even though the Vikings had several settlements, something the Chinese never had (hence: no ruins or tombs).

The Vikings settled extensively on Greenland only, and their forages into continental North America were inconclusive. They didn't leave behind Christianity nor the Roman Alphabet, but I'm supposed to accept that the Chinese left behind the Chinese script?
Besides, if you dismiss all sorts of proof and postulate only the scenario that would leave no proof - then you have no scenario.

However, archeologists did find a catch of old Chinese coins, and anchor stones equal to the ones the Chinese used.

Shang dynasty coins were in fact seashells.

Now I have a question.

Why is it so hard to believe that the Chinese reached the Americas, while (1) nobody denies that they made much longer journeys in the opposite direction,

Because those journeys came much later AND were well documented from many angles in a realistic, contemporary manner.

and (2) they could easily have known about the Americas from their Siberian and Tunguz neighbours who went there before them?

The Shang barely knew about the tributaries of the Yangtze. Anything that they could hear about North America would be so distorted by word of mouth that they would be no different from purely fabricated myth.

[Wernazuma III]

One more post, ranskaldan or Ribannah, and I'll have to ask close this thread. Discuss this elsewhere, it's really annoying to have this private conversation in here. You should agree about opening a thread on this in Off-Topic.
I'm currently working on Early Modern (16th-18th cent.) theories about the origin of Indians and their cultures, so I have to deal with these arguments during work and don't need it in my spare time.

So, no more posts about this!!!
Case closed

[Ribannah]

* Crowd bids Wernazuma III to discuss his work on these forums *

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by Ribannah
It is well documented in the Shan Hai King by minister and later
emperor Yu, who sent out explorers to 'the four corners of the earth'.

The voyage to Fu Sang, as they called the Americas, was measured to be about 7,000 miles east of China. The priest reported that 'the cities of this country need no walls as they wage no wars'. Stone arrowheads (Folsom Points?) were returned as tribute to Emperor Yu in 2205 B.C.

I have to add though that there is some confusion whether Hwui Shan was on the first Chinese expedition to the Americas or on a later one (around 500 AD). But there seems to be little doubt that he is a real historical figure.

yeah but christobal columbo was a better, more charismatic marketer. leif and barney landed in newfoundland, fought the iroquois and left - tried to get other people to forget about vinland... columbo might have been in another place but he sold it to all of europe. there wasn't much gold in the caribeean, but he said there was lots, he traded goods there... pigs in america , potatoes, tomatoes in europe..

so if chinese had better press then and maybe got russia and india interested...

[ranskaldan]

alright, back to the existing topic:

what about the current chinese "unique" unit, the "Rider"?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
alright, back to the existing topic:

what about the current chinese "unique" unit, the "Rider"?

Call it "Tieji", or "Iron Knight" translated into English.

[ranskaldan]

You mean Tieqi?