Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part 4: Egypt, Babylonia, China

[DarkCloud]

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Just wondering, Lord Merciless- is it also a name for the Mulberry tree?

[DarkCloud]

It is well documented in the Shan Hai King by minister and later
emperor Yu, who sent out explorers to 'the four corners of the earth'.

So?
Many ancient rulers said they sent out explorers to the four corners of the earth- are you prepared to believe them all?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Well, it seems funny to me that you think the idea of the Chinese reaching the Americas is so outrageous, while they had the equipment and the thrive to do it. The Buddhist priests made much further journeys than that to spread their belief.
Also, like I said, most of the original report has been saved.
It can be found in the Imperial Archives in Beijing, where it was studied by - who else - Jesuit priests.

Sources? Evidence? Proofs?

If the Commies in Beijing found out that some of my ancestors have reached America, they would have made myriads of propaganda by now. So far I haven't heard or seen anything.

I only remember that couple years ago, some one proposed that Chinese might have reached America. But the notion was rejected by the mainstream Chinese scholars and academics because there is no sufficient evidence to support that.

[Lord Merciless]

Shan Hai King, or better pronouced Shan Hai Jin, was a very controversial book. It indeed described sceneries that can be found in America. For example the Grand Canyon. But since its language was so imprecise, the scenery it described may have well been a river valley in China.

Archeologically speaking, China's recorded past can only be traced to around 1500BC when the Shang dynasty moved its capital to Anyang. The last 12 rulers of Shang were the first historically recorded rulers of China. There is also a legendary Xia dynasty before Shang. But beside Shi Ji, there is really no other historical source confirming its existence. Even Shi Ji borrowed many of its records from folklores and legends. Recent archeological digs so far confirms the existence of relatively sophiscated cultures, but no signs of town-sized sites or written documents from this time have been discovered.

So the claim that Chinese made it to America in 2250BC was a complete non-sense, given today's archeological evidence. You can always fantasize about all kinds of wild claims flying around, but that's fantasy, not facts and science.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
It is likely, supposedly, they possibly could have, but why would they have? We're talking about an amazingly advanced civilization that could have developed gunpowder, but did not have the necessity to...

As for the reason of the earliest expeditions (sent by Yu), I'd say illusions of grandeur. This Yu was a very ambitious man who eventually made emperor. The later (400-500 AD) expeditions were inspired by the wish to spread Buddhism.

Note btw that at least these later voyages did not go due east but via the Bering Sea, as safe as trips like this can be. They then proceeded along the west coast of the Americas, mapping the land and its inhabitants a ways inward.

Later, this route was retraced in its entirety by the Jesuits who had studied the reports.

There were more Chinese expeditions around 1400 AD by admiral Zheng who is also said to have circumnavigated the world. His maps were the probable basis of the Toscanelli map that was used by Columbus.

But the main question is why they would travel 7000 miles the other way when they could easily go east? They had no need.

Er - they DID go east.

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Many ancient rulers said they sent out explorers to the four corners of the earth- are you prepared to believe them all?

Name one.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Archeologically speaking, China's recorded past can only be traced to around 1500BC ...

This only implies that 2250 BC is a rough estimate. Nobody is claiming otherwise.

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I'm ethnically Chinese and know my NATIVE language better than you.

Cool!
But I notice you didn't answer DC's question about the Mulberry tree ...

The story that Fu Sang indicated Japan was started during a weak 18th century rule. It was always the local custom to downplay earlier dynasty's achievements; I already mentioned the bookburnings. The communist rule was no exception to this tradition either.

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I only remember that couple years ago, some one proposed that Chinese might have reached America. But the notion was rejected by the mainstream Chinese scholars and academics because there is no sufficient evidence to support that.

IIRC that story was about remnants of the Shang dynasty fleeing to the Americas. This is something different.

[Lord Merciless]

Actually, Admiral Zheng He and his sponsor Zhu Di(the Emperor) would quite suitable Chinese GLs.

If Zheng He actually discovered America, then it would be even more disappointing for Chinese because they didn't make anything out of that discovery.

Ray Huang's book '1587 - A Year of No Significance' fully described how pathetic Ming really was.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Actually, Admiral Zheng He and his sponsor Zhu Di(the Emperor) would quite suitable Chinese GLs.

Hey, you're absolutely right!
Wernazuma III, are you stil with us?

If Zheng He actually discovered America, then it would be even more disappointing for Chinese because they didn't make anything out of that discovery.

Well, he made maps. Did was what he was asked to do.

Ray Huang's book '1587 - A Year of No Significance' fully described how pathetic Ming really was.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Cool!
But I notice you didn't answer DC's question about the Mulberry tree ...

The story that Fu Sang indicated Japan was started during a weak 18th century rule. It was always the local custom to downplay earlier dynasty's achievements; I already mentioned the bookburnings. The communist rule was no exception to this tradition either.

IIRC that story was about remnants of the Shang dynasty fleeing to the Americas. This is something different.

You really know Chinese history well, Sang indeed means the Mulberry tree. But why do you assume that mulberry trees only grow in Americas? Do you know that silkworms thrive on mulberry trees, and that there is a Chinese surname of the same character?

I think that Zheng He made it to America is quite credible, but that people during Shang time got there? That's too wild.

[Wernazuma III]

OK, please stop it. I don't mean this as offense, actually I think it's fun to discuss such stuff, but not here. If someone opens a thread about this in Off-Topic and tells me, I'll readily join in.

Zheng He as a Chinese GL? - Good idea, done.

[Lord Merciless]

Sorry about that, Wernazuma.

As for your Chinese city list, it looks pretty good. However, you may want to be consistent and replace all 'ts' with 'Q' and all 'hs' with 'X'.

[Wernazuma III]

OK, remind me, should I forget it, as I got to go having dinner.

[DarkCloud]

Er - they DID go east.

I meant west.

There were more Chinese expeditions around 1400 AD by admiral Zheng who is also said to have circumnavigated the world. His maps were the probable basis of the Toscanelli map that was used by Columbus.

Where did he stop near europe, the canaries? or did he circumnavigate via southern routes?
Are there any European records or native tales to confirm this?

As for the reason of the earliest expeditions (sent by Yu), I'd say illusions of grandeur. This Yu was a very ambitious man who eventually made emperor. The later (400-500 AD) expeditions were inspired by the wish to spread Buddhism.

Note btw that at least these later voyages did not go due east but via the Bering Sea

I still don't believe that, but it does make some sense.

Name one

I don't think I have to, but remember Constantine, Nero, etc. many roman empires claimed to have discovered the whole world, etc. strange claims.

And as for Alexander, he thought he conquered just about everything (except for the western Europe)

Other rulers have made calims to have sent explorers to 'the four corners' but this was before everything was discovered. For them the 4 corners could have been perhaps 500 miles in each direction

[Wernazuma III]

Qingtao and Tienqin?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Qingtao and Tienqin?

Was it spelled Tientsin? Damn, 'ts' could also be 'J'. So in this case: Tienjin. Qingtao is correct, although it could also be Qingdao. But I don't know a simple way to tell you when to use 't' and when to use 'd', so I think we should just leave the rest the way it is.