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**Ribannah** · August 4, 2002, 17:06

Were the following cities founded by Americans?

New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, San Diego, Sacramento, Santa Fe, Las Vegas, Baton Rouge, Tacoma, Cheyenne, San Antonio, Topeka, Honolulu, Erie, Tallahassee (and probably others)?

And what is Clinton doing on the leader list?

I'd pick JF Kennedy!

**Lord Merciless** · August 4, 2002, 17:49

I think the Germany, as defined today, should begin its history after the split of Charlemagne's empire. Thus, Alarich, Odoaker, and Theoderich should not be names.

I propose the following additional German GLs:
Martin Luther,
Friedrich der Grosse,
Karl von Klausewitz,
Franz Joseph I,
Karl Marx,
Erich Ludendorff,
Werner von Heisenberg,
Friedrich Ebert,
Adolf Hitler,
Heinz Guderian,
Konrad Adenauer.

Clinton? Are you kidding?

And I propose the following additional American GLs:
Thomas Jefferson,
Andrew Jackson,
John Pershing,
Omar Bradley,
Cheser Nimitz,
George Marshall,
Dwight Eisenhower,
Teddy Roosevelt,
FR, Roosevelt.

**sabrewolf** · August 4, 2002, 17:51

Re: Expansion Pack: Cities and leaders for existing civs part2: Germans

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Cities:
Zürich
Basel
Bern
Salzburg
Straßburg
Stettin

- zürich, basel, bern are swiss cities, never belonged to germany
- salzburg is a austrian city
- strassburg is presently in france (alsass), has a big german influence and was under control of each civ a couple of times.
btw: the double-s (ß) has been removed in the newest german language reform

- stettin iirc a czeckcity (?? i'm not sure about this, though ??)

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Leaders:
Barbarossa
Rommel
Blücher
Alarich
Manstein
Odoaker
Hindenburg
Theoderich
Otto III

karl der grosse
hitler
moltke

**Lord Merciless** · August 4, 2002, 17:52

Originally posted by Ribannah
Were the following cities founded by Americans?

New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, San Diego, Sacramento, Santa Fe, Las Vegas, Baton Rouge, Tacoma, Cheyenne, San Antonio, Topeka, Honolulu, Erie, Tallahassee (and probably others)?

Who cares? London was not founded by English, Paris was not founded by French, Salamanca was not founded by the Iroquois, Alexandria was not founded by the Egyptians, Toledo was not founded by the Spanish, and Cologne was not founded by Germans.

**Lord Merciless** · August 4, 2002, 17:56

Re: Re: Expansion Pack: Cities and leaders for existing civs part2: Germans

Originally posted by sabrewolf

- zürich, basel, bern are swiss cities, never belonged to germany
- salzburg is a austrian city
- strassburg is presently in france (alsass), has a big german influence and was under control of each civ a couple of times.
btw: the double-s (ß) has been removed in the newest german language reform

- stettin iirc a czeckcity (?? i'm not sure about this, though ??)

There is no Austria in this game. Austrians speak German so I don't see why their cities and leaders should not be merged with that of Germans, especially if you included Karl der Grosse as a German leader.

Before the Swiss rebelled against the Empire, all those cities belonged to the German "Empire". I think you guys still speak German today, with some variations of course. There is no Switzerland in this game, so naturally you guys belong to the German civilization.

**sabrewolf** · August 4, 2002, 17:59

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Who cares? London was not founded by English, Paris was not founded by French, Salamanca was not founded by the Iroquois, Alexandria was not founded by the Egyptians, Toledo was not founded by the Spanish, and Cologne was not founded by Germans.

interesting .... who founded these cities?
paris, former lutetia, founded by the gauls (?) which you could call french

alexandria probably from alexander the great (macedonian), but i'm sure there was a city there before from the egyptians.
teledo from arabs?
cologne wasn't from the germans? sure? (btw: german name: köln)

**sabrewolf** · August 4, 2002, 18:06

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
There is no Austria in this game. Austrians speak German so I don't see why their cities and leaders should not be merged with that of Germans, especially if you included Karl der Grosse as a German leader.

Before the Swiss rebelled against the Empire, all those cities belonged to the German "Empire". I think you guys still speak German today, with some variations of course. There is no Switzerland in this game, so naturally you guys belong to the German civilization.

well, switzerland really never belonged to the german empire (independent (from austria since 1291), allthough 60% speak german. big influence: yes - control: no.

by the way: interesting theory

so add perth, sidney, adelaide, wellington, etc. to english civ because OZ and NZ aren't included either.
buenos aires, santiago, la paz, etc. would belong to the spanish (ok, they aren't there either... not yet)...

i don't agree in adding cities to an empire only because they happen to have the same language...

**Lord Merciless** · August 4, 2002, 18:11

London was founded by Romans as Londinium. There might be some small Celtic settlements there before, but it became a town under Romans.

Paris owned its name to Romans as well and was formerly called Lutetia Parisorium. But Lutetia itself was a fairly large Celtic settlement already, so you can say that Paris was founded by Celts.

Alexandria might have a similar past like London. It was promoted to a city by Alexander and Ptolemy.

Cologne was founded by Romans as Colonia Aggripina. The German barbarians were too lazy and illiterate to spell out the full name later on, so the city name morphed into Koeln/Cologne.

Toledo was also founded by Romans as Toletum, but it might have a Celtic past, too.

Also most great cities in France are almost completely Roman or Celtic in origin. For example, Lyonswas Lugdunum, Strassburg Argentoratum, Marseille Marsillia, and Bordeaux Burdigala.

Eburacum was an interesting city because it became York later, and if you add a 'New' to its name...

**Lord Merciless** · August 4, 2002, 18:13

Originally posted by sabrewolf

so add perth, sidney, adelaide, wellington, etc. to english civ because OZ and NZ aren't included either.
buenos aires, santiago, la paz, etc. would belong to the spanish (ok, they aren't there either... not yet)...

i don't agree in adding cities to an empire only because they happen to have the same language...

Why not? They belong to the same cultural circle, or civilization. I would add Singapore and Taipeh to Chinese cities as well, and Chiang Kai-Chek as Chinese GL.

**Wernazuma III** · August 4, 2002, 18:57

Chiang Kai-Chek as Chinese GL

Done.

But I got a lot to reply:

sabrewolf: As you can see from my flag: I'm Austrian, so I know where Basael and Salzburg are

I decided to have them in, because basically German Switzerland and modern Austria are part of the German culture/civilization. I don't say this, because I'm a megalomanic Großdeutscher, I'm quite happy being an Austrian, but because I have to acknowledge several hundreds of years similar history and shared culture. But you remind me that I should add more Austrian cities.
Stettin is actually a city in Poland, but has a very large German history. Thus, in a discussion with some Poles, we've decided to have it in both lists, once as Stettin, once as Sceczin (or similar)

The discussion about "To which civ does this city actually belong" can be led endlessly. Generally, I've tried to give them to that city, where it was more important or to which it longer belonged. In some cases, where the city was very important to several civs, I tried to have it in both lists with different names (Constantinopolis/Istanbul...)

**Wernazuma III** · August 4, 2002, 19:08

sabrewolf: About not wanting to have cities belong to an "empire". Although technically, in Civ3 one plays an empire, don't forget that you're playing a whole civ.

For example, the Indian territories were rarely so united as they are in the past 100 years (less than Switzerland was part of the Holy Roman Empire), yet they belong to the same civ.

The Aztec city list not only has cities which were part of the Aztec Empire, but also cities which alreasdy were abandoned when the Aztecs arrived in Mexico. Yet it is legitimate to have them in, as they had a similar culture.

**sabrewolf** · August 4, 2002, 19:09

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
sabrewolf: As you can see from my flag: I'm Austrian, so I know where Basael and Salzburg are

I decided to have them in, because basically German Switzerland and modern Austria are part of the German culture/civilization. I don't say this, because I'm a megalomanic Großdeutscher, I'm quite happy being an Austrian, but because I have to acknowledge several hundreds of years similar history and shared culture. But you remind me that I should add more Austrian cities.
Stettin is actually a city in Poland, but has a very large German history. Thus, in a discussion with some Poles, we've decided to have it in both lists, once as Stettin, once as Sceczin (or similar)

The discussion about "To which civ does this city actually belong" can be led endlessly. Generally, I've tried to give them to that city, where it was more important or to which it longer belonged. In some cases, where the city was very important to several civs, I tried to have it in both lists with different names (Constantinopolis/Istanbul...)

ah... i didn't recognise the austrian flag because of that black "blob" in the middle... but now you mention it: i guess it's an eagle... didn't know, that's official?

anyhow: i can accept your and lord merciless's argumentation. in the beginning i was just worried it would be another of these cases, where people are ignorant. as i see now, you've thought about all this before, so you've got my blessing

good convincing work going on... well done

**Wernazuma III** · August 4, 2002, 19:13

Oh, BTW, I won't add Hitler, because I simply don't want this ****ing bastard, disgrace of humanity in my modpack as a "Great Leader".

**Lord Merciless** · August 4, 2002, 19:21

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Oh, BTW, I won't add Hitler, because I simply don't want this ****ing bastard, disgrace of humanity in my modpack as a "Great Leader".

Agreed.

Announcement

Expansion Pack: Cities and leaders for existing civs part2: Germans

Expansion Pack: Cities and leaders for existing civs part2: Germans

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