Extra Pack Finalization Project, parts 1-4 compiled

[dunk]

Originally posted by JamesJKirk
(except maybe for the aforementioned special-warrior dominated Americas

Good point, playing next to these guys will be a difficult challenge in the ancient era.

Remember, a 2-1-1 warrior is 100% more powerful on attack than a regular warrior. The Mounted Warrior is only 50% more powerful than the Horseman. The Immortal is only 33% better than the Swordsman. It seems the Inca and Maya will have units that are 100% better on offense or defense than their rivals for a time.

[Wernazuma III]

You're right on this, it is tough, but:

On an Earth map it won't be that much of a problem as most American civs get that early bonus, especially those two which are especially close (Aztec and Maya).
And on random maps: In the original game there is one civ with such an early bonus and now with the double number of civs we have three of them. I don't think it would be too much of a problem.
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that we will find several problems regarding game balance once the mod will be done and we'll have to make changes afterwards. Until then I'd say we give it a try. Moreover, having a spearman-substitute would mean an overall of 4 spearman-UUs.

[JamesJKirk]

Are you including the post-WWI years under Pilsudski as part of Polish democracy? Just curious...Anyway, one of my points was that regardless of whether the government was chosen by them or imposed on them, it was their government for a number of years. I wouldn't regard the current government of Germany any less legitimate even though it was imposed on them post WWII.

I understand your hesitation to label those regimes Communist, but just remember it's with a big C and not a little one Besides Civ is abstract, and it's Communist government is really just supposed to be a catchall of all those states that call(ed) themselves Communist. But nonetheless, I'm no real expert on Asian history, so I think that the decision of what to shun should be left to someone else, although Republic could be a decent choice, yes?

Someone earlier suggested an Incan Archer as the UU, as that's what was used in AOE, I think. That could be worth looking in to, as the graphic for it would be easily obtainable, plus for balance.

Is Ethiopia the only African civ added to this? That's going to be one empty-@$$ continent, as will South America. I know the voting's closed, but there's a plethora of worthy civs, especially in West Africa to draw from

[dunk]

I'm not complaining about the warrior replacements. I don't think all the civs should necessarily be balanced as you can select which civ you are and which other civs are in your game anyway.

I think all the civs that got mentioned in the initial voting for this Extra Civs Pack could be put in the next one. There should be as many civs as possible to choose from.

[DTRY]

About the Khmer civilization.

Khmer
Names: Khmer, the Khmer, Khmer
Ruler/Title: Jayavarman VII/ Deva-Raja
Leaders: Soma, Suryavarman, Indravarman, Yasovarman, Rajendravarman
UU: Phak'akMan (2/3/1); requires Iron; replaces Pikeman
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Monarchy
Cities:
...
Phimai
Phanom Rung
Buriram
Vientiane
Srisatchanalai
Sukhothai
Saigon
Hue
Ayuthaya
Lop Buri
Pali
Chantaburi
...

Well, since I'm a Thai, I think I have some knowledge about Khmer civilization.

First of all, what the heck is the Phak'akMan? Honestly, I've never heard of it. I think Khmer unique unit should be war elephant, but it has been taken by the Indian already. Maybe a modern unit called Khmer Rouge? Just an infantry which treats all terrain as road. Hey, even Hebrews get Modern Armour replacement!

The ruler, well... didn't Suryavarman build Angkor Wat? He can also be the ruler (O.K. he can also be portrayed as a great leader to rush a wonder). But Jayavaraman VII is also fine.

Shunned government shouldn't be communist. They were communist. And it shouldn't be democracy either since they are using it now. It should be republic since I have never heard of Khmer or Cambodian republic. The favoured government is fine.

About cities name :
Panomrung is the name of a Khmer style castle in Buriram, choose either of them.
Phimai is also the name of a Khmer style castle in Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat), it's up to you to choose the castle name or the real province now.
Vientiane is on the northern part of Laos, I don't think the Khmer empire was that big.
Sukhothai and Srisatchanalai are on the northern part of Thailand (or Siam), again, I don't think the Khmer empire was that big. Sukhothai is definitely not a Khmer city since it was an old capital of Siam which was trying to get rid of Khmer influence.
Ayuddhaya is also definitely not a Khmer city. It was another old capital of Siam after Sukhothai period. Ayuddhaya even challenged and conquered the Khmer kingdom itself!
Lop Buri is a valid Khmer city. There are old Khmer style castles in this province.
Hue and Saigon are Viatnamese cities. Well, yes, Khmer once conquered Viatnam. But Viatnam also battled Khmer frequently after Khmer's golden age.
Pali is a language used in Buddhism books and scriptures. Is there a real city name Pali?

Other than that, I'm impressed by your research. Especially the title Deva-Raja. It's a Hindu belief which is believed in Khmer and other Southeast Asia countries at that times.

By the way, no Siamese civilization? It grew after the downfall of Khmer empire and became an important kingdom before imperialism era. It's the only Southeast Asia nation which has never been colonized. Oh well, I guess it's too similar to the Khmer then (we recieved some Khmer influences). And we don't have a monumental wonder such as Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom.

[Wernazuma III]

Re: About the Khmer civilization.

Thanks DTRY, good tips.
The "Phak'Ak" is a weapon similar to a pike, probably very similar to many east asian pike weapons (couldn't find a picture). I liked the unit because as you said the Elephant is already in use and additionally we a) manage to have a "pikeman UU" (it's the only pikeman replacement) and b) have a unit that fits in the period of the Khmer empire.

I'll change the shunned gov.

About the city names: I'll let most of them as they are, but I'll remove Pali. OK, maybe it's not 100% correct to merge south-east asian civs so much, but like the "Babylonians" seem to cover all Mesopotamia (even Ashur!)and the Aztecs include all other civs from the valley of Mexico, I think that's OK (if not, just teach me otherwise)

The research btw. was done by Locutus.

[Arrian]

Sorry to butt in, but don't you think the Woad Warrior is unbalancing? It's a Mounted Warrior with defense! That's an incredibly powerful unit.

Just a thought...

-Arrian

[Locutus]

Re: About the Khmer civilization.

Originally posted by DTRY
First of all, what the heck is the Phak'akMan?

Not my call, I never heard of it either. But quite frankly, I don't know any other alternative, next to War elephant.

Personally I don't like laying a link between an ancient civilization and a modern political party/country (this applies to Hebrew/Israel as well) at all. There's no direct link between the Khmer Kingdoms and Pol Pot & Co. I personally think this would make very little sense, in case of the Khmer even less than in case of the Hebrew (at least modern Israel is actually a country).

The ruler, well... didn't Suryavarman build Angkor Wat? He can also be the ruler (O.K. he can also be portrayed as a great leader to rush a wonder). But Jayavaraman VII is also fine.

Yes, it was a tough choice but I eventually gave Jayavaraman the benefit of the doubt. He was the more 'aggressive' builder of the two (he built an extensive road network, Angkor Thom, Ta Phrom, etc). Suryavarman put almost all his engery in a single structure, namely Angkor Wat.

Shunned government shouldn't be communist. They were communist. And it shouldn't be democracy either since they are using it now. It should be republic since I have never heard of Khmer or Cambodian republic. The favoured government is fine.

I can agree with this.

As far as the city list goes, I would like to explain that I wasn't done with that list yet. I had made a draft for my own (CtP2) mod when Wernazuma needed help for this mod and I posted a rough draft. Wernazuma couldn't wait for the final list (in retrospect a good call, I'm still not done) and removed the most iffy city names from the list and used that. Had I further refined the list, I certainly would have done further research and added more cities.

Panomrung is the name of a Khmer style castle in Buriram, choose either of them.

Buriram is both a city and a province. Phanom Rung is a Khmer city 50km or so south of the city of Buriram. Both have Khmer originins.

Phimai is also the name of a Khmer style castle in Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat), it's up to you to choose the castle name or the real province now.

Same as above. Both Korat and Phimai were both Khmer cities (the city of Phimai lies 50km north-east of the city of Korat). Phimai in particular was important but Korat itself is worth mentioning as well (Korat is the more important of the two today, I guess that explains why the entire province was called after Korat rather than Phimai).

Both Buriram and Korat are fairly important Thai cities today, I'm almost getting the feeling I'm making a horrible mistake here since you apparently only know them as provinces. Please correct me if this is the case

Vientiane is on the northern part of Laos, I don't think the Khmer empire was that big.

Actually, at it was. At its peak, Angkor Empire extended from the border of modern day Burma east to the South China Sea and north to Laos. Although I do not know the precise borders of the Khmer Empire (I doubt such clear-cut borders existed at all), but I've found numerous sources which confirmed the Vientane region was once part of the Khmer empire.

Sukhothai and Srisatchanalai are on the northern part of Thailand (or Siam), again, I don't think the Khmer empire was that big. Sukhothai is definitely not a Khmer city since it was an old capital of Siam which was trying to get rid of Khmer influence.

Actually, the Thai obtained the city by driving out the Khmer. Before that, Sukhothai was actually a relatively important Khmer frontier city. Not on the same level as Angkor Wat of course, but still a city worth mentioning. My explanation on the extend of the Khmer Empire applies to Srisatchanalai as well.

Ayuddhaya is also definitely not a Khmer city. It was another old capital of Siam after Sukhothai period. Ayuddhaya even challenged and conquered the Khmer kingdom itself!

Ayutthaya, before becoming arguably the most important city in Thai history (whose rise was indeed largely at the expense of the Khmer Empire), was a Khmer frontier city, just like Sukhothai. From what I can tell I don't think it was a very important city under the Khmer, but considering it's further history I thought it was worth including.

Hue and Saigon are Viatnamese cities. Well, yes, Khmer once conquered Viatnam. But Viatnam also battled Khmer frequently after Khmer's golden age.

Same story here as before: they *were* once Khmer. Just as the Annam controlled parts of Cambodia during their golden age, the Khmer controlled much of Southern Vietnam during their peak. Saying that Saigon shouldn't be included on the Khmer city list because it fought the Khmer later on is IMHO a bit like saying Londinium or Palmyra shouldn't be on the Roman city list.

Pali is a language used in Buddhism books and scriptures. Is there a real city name Pali?

Yes, I wasn't sure about this one, I will probably eventually have scratch it once I research further. Apparently the language was named after an inscription which was found near the town of Pali. But that means the town would be included merely for it's archeological value, not it's actual historical value (quite frankly, I have no idea how important Pali is/was).

Other than that, I'm impressed by your research. Especially the title Deva-Raja. It's a Hindu belief which is believed in Khmer and other Southeast Asia countries at that times.

Thanks. I find SE Asia one of the most fascinating historical regions in the world (only surpassed by Africa). I've read a fair amount about it. Not too long ago (but after I compiled the information on the Khmer for this Pack), I found out that I will actually be able to visit the region a few weeks from now, very exciting! Since this visit is related to my study, I actually had to write a few preperatory reports on the region and was able to dive even deeper into the matter... Unfortunately I won't be able to visit most of the former Khmer Empire, but I will visit the equally interesting Malaysian Peninsula (Singapore, Batam Island, Melaka, Kuala Lumpur - traveling by bus and train) and visit Bangkok and immediate surroundings for a week

By the way, no Siamese civilization? It grew after the downfall of Khmer empire and became an important kingdom before imperialism era. It's the only Southeast Asia nation which has never been colonized. Oh well, I guess it's too similar to the Khmer then (we recieved some Khmer influences). And we don't have a monumental wonder such as Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen a Thai/Siamese civ as well but alas, there are only 31 places available and the choice was made democratically...

[DTRY]

Well, I've seen the post which has a vote for new civilizations. So I can accept the fact that Khmer civilization is more famous than Siamese. No comment then. At least it's better than AOE2 which Khmer was cut off in the last vote against Korean. I guess that's because Koreans buy more softwares than Khmer.

About UU/ruler connection, I know that Khmer civilization, lead by Jayavarman, sounds just ridiculous with Khmer Rouge as UU. But other civilizations also have strange UU/ruler connections such as Riders/Mao, War Elephants/Gandhi and F-15/Lincoln. All these civilizations have UUs and rulers from completely different era. So, why can't Khmer?

By the way, I don't think adding +1 attack point for the Phak'akMan will help. When other civilizations have pikemen you won't use a unit which has 2 attack point for attack. So adding +1 attack point would be a waste, in my humble opinion. Can you adjust it so it doesn't require iron, just like War Elephant? I think this way it should be more useful.

About Buriram and Korat province, actually it is a "Changwat" in Thai language, which can be translate as both city and province (confusing, eh? ). But if province means large region which contains many cities, then these 2 Changwats are cities since they contain one city each.

Panomrung castle is in the city of Buriram, and Phimai castle is in the city of Korat. But if they are separate cities back in the ancient time, you can use all of them as city names.

About other city names, well, I admit that you have done much research than me. Actually our Thai history class never teachs any history prior to Sukhothai period. What a shame. So I don't know really much about Khmer civilization. I just know that they had a big empire which influenced all Southeast Asia region and later our ancestors tried to liberate themselves from Khmer rules. What I learned in class is the struggle of our ancestors versus the empire of Burma. The Khmer was out of the picture at that time and became an Ayuddhaya's dependency.

[Wernazuma III]

Thanks DTRY. I didn't think about the weak effect of just adding 1 attack. I'll think about it, though removing the required iron already seems to be a good idea.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by DTRY
About UU/ruler connection, I know that Khmer civilization, lead by Jayavarman, sounds just ridiculous with Khmer Rouge as UU. But other civilizations also have strange UU/ruler connections such as Riders/Mao, War Elephants/Gandhi and F-15/Lincoln. All these civilizations have UUs and rulers from completely different era. So, why can't Khmer?

I don't like most of those choices either. But in case of the Khmer it's even worse IMHO. To the best of my knowledge, Khmer Rouge is a political group, not a nation (let alone a civilization). Not all Khmer Rouge members are of the Khmer 'race' and not all Khmer are Khmer Rouge members. The link between the two is very indirect if you ask me. But although I don't agree with it, I can see your point...

About Buriram and Korat province, actually it is a "Changwat" in Thai language, which can be translate as both city and province (confusing, eh? ).

Nah, lately I've been studying the Thai language a bit as preparation for my trip and it's not confusing at all

Panomrung castle is in the city of Buriram, and Phimai castle is in the city of Korat. But if they are separate cities back in the ancient time, you can use all of them as city names.

Hmm, not according to my data. Let me quote one of dozens of travel sites on the Internet (in this case Travel Thailand): "60 km outside Korat, Prasat Hin Phmai National Historical Park near Phimai contains impressive 10th and 11th century Khmer ruins older than Cambodia’s Angkor Wat." (Map here)

Doesn't sound like it's the same city to me, but then again, I've never actually been there... Information on the geographic location Panomrung is harder to find but according to the University of Leiden: "Phanom Rung is situated 112 km southeast of Nakhon Rachasima and 64 km south of Buri Ram (see picture 1, below)." (Map here).

Feel free to correct me if these sources are all wrong...

I used to know a single comprehensive high-quality site on all major temples, castles and ruins in Thailand but I'm afraid I lost the URL But the links to the interactive map I gave are pretty good as well, I'd say...

About other city names, well, I admit that you have done much research than me.

Thanks. And that while it's basically still a draft

Actually our Thai history class never teachs any history prior to Sukhothai period. What a shame.

I can imagine that you don't learn too much about the Khmer, although that's certainly a pity - unfortunately such narrow-mindedness in history (and other affairs) is all too common, not just in your school or country But surely they teach (tought?) you about Ban Chiang or Nanchao?

What I learned in class is the struggle of our ancestors versus the empire of Burma.

Why am I not surprised?

[DTRY]

O.K. I understand why using Khmer Rouge is impossible. Well, I think the Phak'akMan needs some fix then.

About Phimai/Korat problem, now I have a confirmed source from Tourism Authority of Thailand. Phimai is a sandstone castle located in Amphoe Phimai (Phimai district) in Changwat Korat (Korat or Nakhon Ratchasima province). There are other 3 Prasat Hin (stone castle) in Korat province : Phanom Wan, Nang Ram and Pha Kho (well, Korat is a very big province).

So, if you want to choose today's city name, choose Korat since Phimai is just a district in Korat province. But if you think that each castles had large communities in the ancient time and can be classified as separate cities, then use all castle names instead.

Also, Prasat Hin Phanom Rung is located in Amphoe Chalerm Prakiat in Buriram province. Other castles in Buriram province are Nong Hong, Ban Kok Ngiew (with ancient hospital nearby). Again, if you think these castles had large communities (Ban Kok Ngiew had hospital) and can be classified as cities, use them. But if you want today's city name choose Buriram.

[Locutus]

DTRY,
As you can read on the website you linked Prasat Hin Phimai is the castle, which is "almost situated in the center of Phimai Ancient city". So Phimai was definitely more than just a castle, according to that source. Elsewhere I've read that other names we discussed here were also ancient Khmer cities, so that's enough evidence for me to include them as cities for now (but as I said, the list is basically still a draft, I might throw them out of the list in the future - if I ever get around to finishing the list).

Anyway, the and other other city/temple/castle names website you mentioned are very useful, thanks for those. I'll keep those at hand when/if I continue working on my city lists for the Khmer and Thai for CtP2. (Speaking of which, could I have some advise from you as a local: should I refer to the present-day capital as Bangkok or as Krung Thep? Also, are there more cities in Thailand beside Bangkok that have a different name among foreigners than among the Thai?)

[DTRY]

Originally posted by Locutus
DTRY,
As you can read on the website you linked Prasat Hin Phimai is the castle, which is "almost situated in the center of Phimai Ancient city". So Phimai was definitely more than just a castle, according to that source.

Whoops! Missed that. Sorry, I must be .

should I refer to the present-day capital as Bangkok or as Krung Thep?

Bangkok the an older name of Krung Thep since it was a mere city. King Rama I had moved the capital from Thon Buri to Bangkok due to good strategic value of the city. But the name Bangkok has no particular meaning. So, according to astrological reasons, he gave Bangkok the new name "Krung Thep Maha Nakorn etc." which has good meaning. Good meaning will ensure that no one can capture it (hopefully ).

So, if you want Bangkok to be the capital, use the name "Krung Thep" (but some people may not know that it is the same city). But if you decide to use Ayuddhaya or Sukhothai as capital, use the name Bangkok.

Also, are there more cities in Thailand beside Bangkok that have a different name among foreigners than among the Thai?)

Not that I know of. Also, some Thais still call it Bangkok instead of Krung Thep.

[Locutus]

But the name Bangkok has no particular meaning

Actually, it does. It's Chinese for "Village of the Wild Plum" - before it became the Thai capital it was a tiny Chinese fisherman's village

I'm probably making Ayutthaya the capital followed by Sukhothai, Krung Thep, Chiang Mai and Thon Buri (in that order), as those were all the capitals of (the most important) Thai states. I was planning to use Krung Thep because before it was renamed it was a village of very little significance, your reasoning of calling it Krung Thep if it represents the capital makes me more confident about this decision (even though I'm not doing exactly what you meant). The good meaning helps too, as I except to play with the Thai a lot (I don't in the default CtP2 game because the city list is so d*mn poor - Sukothai isn't even on it ) Thanks for that.