Poll on wether Spain was a Civ3-able superpower.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Most definitely, she makes an excellent companion to Sargon.

Oh, please leave Sargon2 in peace by the moment. After all, he haven't written anything else here since the thread started. "Qui tacet, favet", isn't it?
(hey! maybe Ribannah wasn't so wrong about that roman thing; after all, we know latin )

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by jasev


Well, I suppose I wasn't able to explain my opinion. What I tried to say is:

Oh no, I understood, it was a footer statement to say that to be a superpower does not require domination of Europe. Spain Britain and Russia have proved that.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by Ribannah
That is not to diminish the greatness of Spanish writers and architects...

Alas, but that is exactly what you seek to do in these threads. Letters, buildings, music, glory, influence - these are the yardsticks by which cultural greatness is measured! Spain succeeded grandly in all.

Nobody argues if the English should be included, and the accomplishments of the Spanish are on par with them. Why such anti-spanish sentiment among some of the posters here? (Just a rhetorical question, I've no interest in actually pursuing that discussion.)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Indeed, culture is another important element of the game. However, in the case of Spain, it has been argued that most of all they spread Roman culture (read: religion), not their own.

That is not to diminish the greatness of Spanish writers and architects, but we're looking for something extra here.

After all, Spain or Zululand is no comparison, but Spain is unfortunate to be situated right next to France on the map.

I would be interested to see who has made the argument that Spain's 'culture' is restricted to the promulgation of the Roman Catholic faith. It would be like saying that the British Empire's sole contribution to culture is the promulgation of the Anglican faith, or in the case of the American colonies, a Puritan/Protestant faith.

If you take for instance, the idealized figure of the hidalgo, an argument could be made linking the notion to the Mozarabic fakir, in that a hidalgo could still be a hidalgo, bereft of clothes, money, dwelling and so forth, in much the same way that the fakir renounced worldly temptation- an idea linked to Arab/Hispanic thought on essential qualities.

Leaving aside that, you then have Spain's contribution to the European novel, the picaresque form. And of course, the far from minor contribution of Cervantes's 'Don Quixote', which translated into English (amongst other European languages) influenced the development of the novel as we know it today. And of course, it ruminates on the essence/idea of the hidalgo...

Then again, you could also talk in terms of patronage- the influence that the tastes of the Spanish monarchs had on European painting styles and music, from El Greco, Velasquez, and Zurbaran to Domenico Scarlatti's immersion in Andalusian music...

[Shaka Naldur]

she is just blind, she´s had enought arguments to prove that Spain is WAY more important that a lot of the civs that there are in civ3 and it deserves a place in the game.

just spreading romanic culture....
going to america because the starvation

[Beren]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


Oh no, I understood, it was a footer statement to say that to be a superpower does not require domination of Europe. Spain Britain and Russia have proved that.

Would you please first state what a superpower is in the first place.

[Dauphin]

Not comprehensive or definitive

Superpower - state of power (military and economic) and influence (indirect power) over a large part of the known world/globe, such that they are always a consideration in known world/global politics.

[Beren]

Spain definately goes by that definition. Which counts for a lot of countries though.

Of course dominating Europe doesn't make a superpower or other way round. One need to look only on the ancient times and you'd know only Rome dominated Europe, but I'd argue Persia has been a superpower as well as Alexander's Greece.

Geographically there is no reason to mention why Europe should be dominated, if for example Asia should be dominated.
And historically neither. Around 800 the Middle East was more superpower than Europe as well China.
Moreover, suppose nuclear war in Europe... Dominating Europe is then not really essential for victory.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I would be interested to see who has made the argument that Spain's 'culture' is restricted to the promulgation of the Roman Catholic faith.

Not 'restricted to'.
It was a reply in one of the many earlier threads on this topic (and no, I wasn't the one who supplied the argument, but for the life of me I can't remember who did ), when someone claimed Spanish greatness in culture because they brought "their" religion (and language!) to so many parts of the world.
And we do use the name Latin America (and dance ), after all. So that's one thing you're up against.

It would be like saying that the British Empire's sole contribution to culture is the promulgation of the Anglican faith, or in the case of the American colonies, a Puritan/Protestant faith.

I've never seen similar claims about British or French culture.
Not that that's automatically a good thing - imposing your own 'great' culture on other peoples, on the contrary!! But it did fill the resume pages when Firaxis were making their selection.

Leaving aside that, you then have Spain's contribution to the European novel, the picaresque form. And of course, the far from minor contribution of Cervantes's 'Don Quixote', which translated into English (amongst other European languages) influenced the development of the novel as we know it today. And of course, it ruminates on the essence/idea of the hidalgo...

Then again, you could also talk in terms of patronage- the influence that the tastes of the Spanish monarchs had on European painting styles and music, from El Greco, Velasquez, and Zurbaran to Domenico Scarlatti's immersion in Andalusian music...

All fine and interesting, and some of my favorite painters are Spanish, but I think you should be looking for another order of magnitude, things that are in the same category as the ideas behind the French revolution, or compulsory education (Germany, or Prussia rather), or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) etc. Major developments in human civilization. The Inquisition would count, had it been of Spanish origin, but it's Roman ...

Anyway, just trying to reconstruct Firaxis' reasoning (which is not at all easy - see Zululand). It was their choice, after all!

[jasev]

Originally posted by Ribannah
And we do use the name Latin America (and dance ), after all. So that's one thing you're up against.

That's just because the french imposed the name (with their "veto" right) in the UN. "Iberoamerica" (including portuguese) would have been much more accurate.

All fine and interesting, and some of my favorite painters are Spanish, but I think you should be looking for another order of magnitude, things that are in the same category as the ideas behind the French revolution, or compulsory education (Germany, or Prussia rather), or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) etc. Major developments in human civilization. The Inquisition would count, had it been of Spanish origin, but it's Roman ...

OK, so the discovery and colonization of a whole continent, from Colorado to Patagonia, by a little peninsula doesn't count as a major development in the human civilization. And the spread of the greek and arabs Philosophers ideas across europe in the middle ages (never heard about "Toleto translators school")? doesn't count too. And of course, the fact that our language is the third in the more-spoken languages list (after chinese and english) is just a joke... the fact that Cervantes created the modern novel doesn't matter...

or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with)

Do you know what happened to Socrates? That's the freedom of thought of the greeks. And that happened in Athens, I can't wonder what would have happened in Sparta.
And now, we've to hear from you that we have problems with the free thought. We haven't; we only have problems with those people who, charged of prejudgements, speak about our country and our culture without having idea of what they're talking about. I went to civfanatics and read your arguments. So starvation was the cause of the american colonization by the spanish? It's even more stupid than the "restricted to roman culture" argument; and this time, you can't deny it's your argument.

Can you tell me what do you have against Spain? It seems a personal trouble.

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by Ribannah

And we do use the name Latin America (and dance ), after all. So that's one thing you're up against.

also called iberoamerica
yes, and we use the name of iberian peninsula, so the iberians were more important and more developed culturally than the modern spaniards

or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) etc.

what are you talking about??? tell me one example of problem with freedom of speech that you know in spain,
for every one you tell me i´ll tell you three in the US
if you know nothing about actual spain, what can you know about spain 5 centuries ago

Originally posted by Jasev
Can you tell me what do you have against Spain? It seems a personal trouble.

maybe a "macho latino" cheating on you??
it must be something like that, it doesn´t make any sense if not

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by jasev
OK, so the discovery and colonization of a whole continent, from Colorado to Patagonia, by a little peninsula doesn't count as a major development in the human civilization.

The Vikings discovered America much earlier and they aren't in the game either, so apparently Firaxis didn't think this was decisive. I'm not about to discuss the statement that Spain colonized a whole continent again.

And the spread of the greek and arabs Philosophers ideas across europe in the middle ages (never heard about "Toleto translators school")? doesn't count too

That seems obvious. It helped to put Greece in the game though.

And of course, the fact that our language is the third in the more-spoken languages list (after chinese and english) is just a joke...

Not a joke, but language is not a part of the game. It would perhaps be different if diplomacy were in some way affected. (Btw in the same post I mentioned above, the Spanish language was branded as a Roman dialect.)

the fact that Cervantes created the modern novel doesn't matter...

A bold premise to begin with, but no. Literature is an ancient advance in the game and nothing comes after in this field. But even if it did, you would still need to consider the claims of Spain's competitors (English poetry comes to mind).

Do you know what happened to Socrates?

A very important event on the path to freedom of thought, as it led to fierce reactions in Greek society. You might also want to consider what Socrates stood for (the existence of absolute right and wrong) something his fellow citizens apparently didn't believe in.

So starvation was the cause of the american colonization by the spanish?

That's not what I said. I mentioned food shortage as one of the reasons why Spain had more urgent incentives than other countries to exploit the 'new world' (the continous war effort was the other reason I mentioned).

Food shortages and even times of famine were not uncommon. Spain/Hispania had them from at least the time of Millennius til the 19th century, and it was no exception (Madeira and Ireland are two examples that immediately come to mind). This is all well documented.
Note that during the golden age of Spain, its population dropped from IIRC 8 to 7 million - also not unique, eg the Iroquois population also declined in their time.
A century before Columbus, the Black Plague had killed half of the Spanish people, this to put things into perspective.

Noteworthy, however, is that Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture, which IMHO is a major cause for Spain being overtaken as a world power.

Can you tell me what do you have against Spain? It seems a personal trouble.

Contrary to the prevailing propaganda, I have nothing against today Spain.
I have of course the obvious objections to historic Spanish policies (but in this Spain doesn't stand alone in my book), and I have objections against bullies no matter where they come from.

Please remember that what we are trying to do is to discover the reasons why Firaxis didn't select Spain. Claiming that this is an obvious oversight and that anyone who doesn't automatically agree is stupid, doesn't help to gain any insights.

(Btw Shaka, I'm not a USA citizen. )

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by Ribannah
A bold premise to begin with, but no. Literature...

Actually, a widely accepted statement, even among professors of english literature! Cervantes did create the genre, even according to experts with no interest in promoting spain in any way.

Ribannah, you're arguments always miss the mark. One arguer of many threads ago put it well.

other: "Ribannah, what color is your shirt?"
Ribannah: "Cotton. Which brings up ..."

You seem a bit too smart to simply be a terrible debator - a troll again, perhaps? Or are you just unable to admit that somebody else may be right about something that you disagreed with?

Het scheelt me echter niet, ik vind 't gewoon belachelijk dat deze gesprekken altijd tot hetzelfde komen.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Actually, a widely accepted statement, even among professors of english literature! Cervantes did create the genre, even according to experts with no interest in promoting spain in any way.

What is widely accepted is that he wrote the first (and very beautiful) modern novel (El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha (1605)). To claim that he created an entire genre all by himself is an unnecessary exaggeration - Cervantes is great enough as it is - and denies the contributions made by other important authors who followed up and further defined what constitutes the modern novel.

Or went before. Long before Cervantes, Japanese authors wrote novels that fit the genre, like The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Sikibu.

But don't let that stop you guessing the color of my shirt.

Skennen!

P.S.: 'These' discussions are what this forum is for, and can be quite enjoyable as long as people refrain from making nasty personal remarks.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Ribannah
The Vikings discovered America much earlier and they aren't in the game either,

This haven't been proven. And... "I'm not about to discuss the statement that Spain "... discovered... "a whole continent again."

That seems obvious. It helped to put Greece in the game though.

Not so obvious. What I tried to say is that the spanish are responsible of the spread of greek and arab philosophy in the dark ages of Europe, through the Toledo Translators School, founded by Castillian king Alfonso X.

Not a joke, but language is not a part of the game.

Language is an essential part of the culture, and culture is part of the game. But the origin of this discussion was not the game but the history itself, so let's forget about Firaxis for a while, right?

(Btw in the same post I mentioned above, the Spanish language was branded as a Roman dialect.)

You shouldn't quote such a post, it seems to be written by Wiglaf.

You might also want to consider what Socrates stood for (the existence of absolute right and wrong) something his fellow citizens apparently didn't believe in.

And he paid with his life for it.

That's not what I said. I mentioned food shortage as one of the reasons why Spain had more urgent incentives than other countries to exploit the 'new world' (the continous war effort was the other reason I mentioned).

Anyway, it's false. there was no foot shortage in Spain at the end of the 15th century. And Spain never used its american colonies to produce food. We preferred to import seeds to plant them here (potatoes, sugar, tomatoes).

Note that during the golden age of Spain, its population dropped from IIRC 8 to 7 million.

What did you expect? Spain sustained wars against the half of the known world and part of the unknown. A lot of people went outseas seeking fortune and nobody stayed in the fields to produce food. Food shortage was not a cause but a consequence of the Spanish America colonization.

Noteworthy, however, is that Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture, which IMHO is a major cause for Spain being overtaken as a world power.

Not exactly. Spain incorporated the new advances in agriculture even sooner than many other european countries, because of the moorish legacy (we introduced the arab plough in Europe, much better than old roman one).
Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture in the second half of the 17th century, so like it happened with industrial revolution 150 years later. But in the 16th century, Spain was one of the most advanced countries in the world.

Contrary to the prevailing propaganda, I have nothing against today Spain.

You hide it very good. Every time we've argued about spain in this forum, you've appeared and taken part against Spain.

I have objections against bullies no matter where they come from.

Are you talking about somebody in special?

Please remember that what we are trying to do is to discover the reasons why Firaxis didn't select Spain.

Sorry, you should have misunderstood the topic.
This thread was born because Sargon2, a german guy, said in another thread that spain was never more than a regional power. We disagreed ant then he started this poll. that's all.

Claiming that this is an obvious oversight and that anyone who doesn't automatically agree is stupid, doesn't help to gain any insights.

Oh, it seems I offended you when I said that the "food shortage" argument was stupid. Sorry, It wasn't my intention. But if you want to avoid that, you should inform yourself about what you're talking about before.
Ribannah, it's obvious for anybody that you don't know spanish history. BTW, that thing about spain just spreading roman culture is another stupidity, no matter who wrote it; I'm glad you didn't.


About Cervantes... well, you say he didn't create the modern novel. He just wrote the first. What do you expected him to do? Writing a novel that would contain all the apportations that have received the genre in the last five centuries?

It's just a problem of semantics, but every literature professor would say you he created the modern novel, just like Picasso created the cubism or like Homer created the epic poems. A lot of people after them made vital apportations, but they came later.