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The Iroquois are only there because the mayans and the Incans are way to similar to the Aztecs, and other Native American groups such as apache and chinook are to small to include as proper civ's (same as the Iroquois then )
Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out.
The Iroquois didn't WANT to wipe them out. They saw the enormous advantage that an alliance with the Europeans would give them over their rivals, and history proved them right. They built their empire on their trade with (first of all) the Dutch. The French chose to support their enemies, which cost them (the French) dearly.
Without the trade with the Europeans, the Iroquois would have gained ground much slower.
So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization.
The Iroquois were never destroyed. As I said above, the arrival of the Europeans made them blossom. Later, after the numbers of the colonists had grown far beyond the size of the Iroquois population, they still remained the most powerful force in North America for a long time. Finally, it was internal disagreement that made the League shrink during the American War of Independence, they were never conquered.
Today the Iroquois are still largely independent within the USA and Canadian borders, with their own laws and government.
The Iroquois were uncivilized
The main European philosophers of the 17th century and beyond disagreed with you, they thought very highly of the Iroquois democracy and way of life. The Iroquois inspired European enlightenment and specifically the French Revolution, as well as the later ideas of Marx and Engels. The US of A was modelled after their example.
and far far behind in technological matters.
Not at all. They were ahead of the Europeans in some fields (agriculture, government, social values, urban planning, medicinal drugs), behind in others (metallurgy, seafaring, banking, chemistry). That's why the contact was such a success for both sides.
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ... Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Originally posted by Ribannah
I don't smoke, and I don't drink coffee either.
But when I speak before the council, I remember the Iroquois.
When I cherish the respect we girls have, I remember the Iroquois.
When I eat my corn, and realize how rich the harvest is, I remember the Iroquois.
When I take my herbal medicine, I remember the Iroquois.
When I look at my colorful outfit, I remember the Iroquois.
When I walk in the woods and listen to the birds singing, I remember the Iroquois.
nice
but this can be said about many other "civs" as well, can't it?
Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc.
Well if these are sings of friendly people I'd rather have not a "nice" Iro in my neighbourhood.
The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly.
Let me suggest something to you. Go and read some history. And don't make such stupid comments about people. Regardless of whether you think someone is right or wrong, that does not give any right, privelage or duty to say things like that.
Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc.
And you can't say that kind of thing about anybody else?! How about the Nubians attacking 'innocent' Egyptians (and vice-versa), the Dorians attacking 'innocent' Greeks, the Germanic tribes attacking 'innocent' Romans. Yep, even the Anglo-Saxon tribes (ancestors of the English) were also cruel to the 'innocent' Britons, and were in turn treated cruelly by the Normans. And what about the Mongols attacking 'innocent' Chinese, Persians and Seljuk Turks? The cruelty you describe has happened everywhere in history, and to just about everyone.
Mind you, the English and French had a bit to answer for themselves in the New World.
NOW CAN WE ALL PLEASE JUST LET THIS POINTLESS RANT DIE ?!
"Corporation, n, An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." -- Ambrose Bierce
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." -- Thomas Jefferson
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