Portuguese Civ

[Harovan]

Sargon2, are you really from Berlin-Kreuzberg, the multicultural center of Berlin? I can't believe that, when I read your nationalistic babble. And I agree, this way you make an idiot of yourself. These boards are multi-national, respect this and try not to be so f'n ignorant when talking about other nations.

Btw, I don't see the World kissed at the place, where Germany is. God must rather have kicked the World at this place. And yes, I am from Germany too.

[sargon2]

@ Ralph: it´s a quote man, just translated. And I distanced from it in a recent post, it is ironically meant, by Die Prinzen, I already wrote on that. U should read more carefully.
U think I#M not respecting different cultures. Man we are at a american site and here counts freedom of speech. If anybody says that anything is great. Than it must be possible to others to relativate that. So who is the idiot now.
Spain is to me an important power. But it never dominated europe and that is neccessary until 19. Cent to be a superpower. If u think that is already hostil to other nations, then u got a problem of tolerance, not me.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by sargon2
U should read more carefully.

You are right, or to translate it in your language, "U r right". When the first half of a post is pure crap I usually don't read further.

So who is the idiot now.

Care to make a poll? I grant you to abstain myself!

... then u got a problem of tolerance, not me.

I'm intolerant indeed, but where's the problem?

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by sargon2
Man we are at a american site and here counts freedom of speech.

Silliness goes on an on
This is not an American site. Even if it was, it's privately-owned so the only ones who decide about "freedom of speech" are the owners.

Keep on talking about things you ignore, please, you are one amusing dude

[sargon2]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Care to make a poll? I grant you to abstain myself!

First I thought u were an opportunist, for I don't know where u got your opinion from. So I thought u just took the opinion of the majority of the mainly spanish or hispanic posts. Truth=majority. I remembered the state of my teacher who said if majority is always right dirt must be delicious, billions of flies can't err. .
But now I think u r right. That doesn't bring us to truth but it shows a state of wether we conceived anybody. I'll try to make a poll.

Correction:
There is one good aspect of our discussion. I and maybe other people thought on spanish history. And its highly inetresting. Standing for main development of the world.
I did keep on collecting facts.
My estimation of the state of the colonies was some wrong. I still think that colonies at least at the beginning Centuries did count mutch less than motherlands, for they were less populated and only punctually technically developed. So the landmass of colonies don't equal the strongly developed regions of europe.

I heared a lot on how the north-american collonies were managed, and some on cardinal La Casa and his fight against latin-american burocraty. So I just generalized that there was only a lousy management and development - the only idea was to get money out of it.
Following my new informations the Spain Crown did develop her colonies extraordinary, and thus they got a better quality. By example up to 1/3 of the Spanish population went americabound, and built up a new existence. That were mainly normal and flexible people who did a good job. The rumour that the administartion of the Spanish Crown had been ineffectiv and superficial was spread by big landowners who tried to take power in the independent wars. That rumours takes up today. Even me did follow.


My mistake on regarding Spanish militaristic history is that I expected that Spain had should spent it enormous resources on their military expanding, if they got non in europe they must have failed. But the truth was they weren't interested in long bloody fights against France and Britania, they just spent their resources in culture and colonial development and god knows what else.

But my result remains the same, who doesn't dominat neighbouring countries is no superpower. No matter wether that good or bad, just by deffinition.
They were a major european power.

[sargon2]

So, now I have made a poll on that. The first of electors for
"Spain has been a major european power not dominating europe. " was me.
Now what about You? What do U chose


to the poll:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44895

[Harovan]

You take me wrong sargon2. I care less what you write. Everybody can make a mistake, and if it concerns history of Spain, I tend to believe the Spaniards rather than you. But that is not the point. I have discussed earlier in this thread and also wasn't always right. I stepped in this discussion, because I don't like how you write. You may it not mean this way, but it sounds like you want to put down other countries, namely Spain and Poland. And this attitude comes along with your signature. It may be meant funny, but without an explanation it sounds super-nationalistic. But alas, there is no explanation, and who knows Die Prinzen? I have nothing against you, but suggest you to think a bit about this subject.

[jasev]

OK, it's time to end with this discussion.

"The Imperial Spain", by J.H. Elliott, Edward Arnold Publishers (London), 1963

Translation into english (by me) from the original spanish translation

Prologue:
... The contemporary observers noticed that change. "We see today"-wrote Macchiavelli- "Fernando, king of Aragón, today king of spain, who deserves to be considered as a new prince, because he turned from a little and weak king into the greatest monarch of the Christianity". Ferdinand's embassadors were respected and his armies feared. And in the new World, the conquerors were building on their own an empire that had to change the power balance in the old continent. During a few fabulous decades, Spain achieved to be the biggest power in the world. During that decades, Spain would be Europe's owner, would colonize overseas territories, would create a government system to administrate the biggest -and most dispersed- empire know in the world at that times, and would produce a new type of civilization that would be an unique apportation to european cultural tradition.

I know my translation is quite poor, but I think you'll understand the main parts. I hope it will be enough to convince you, Sargon2. If not... well, I will assume it's you who has a problem.

[Jay Bee]

After reading the childish blabbering that Sargon wrote about me in the other thread I had decided to definitively step out and simply ignore this guy for the rest of times. Then I came to this thread and read what Sir Ralph wrote. Thanks SR for summing it up so well.

Jasev, don't bother. I already suggested him to read John Elliott (Sir John Elliott ) and look at what he did instead...

[Dauphin]

The British/English were one of the greatest empires ever seen, but they never did anything in Europe - in terms of land conquest.

Judging Spain on merely European conquest would be wrong, but ignoring that they did have European conquests is even funnier.

[Dauphin]

First Greek Civilization site

Originally posted by Jay Bee


Silliness goes on an on
This is not an American site.

I missed the comment first time (I skipped over most of his posts). I guess he didn't ever question why this place is called Apolyton (which is oddly enough Greek - meaning Ultimate) and why the two owners are Greek and Canadian.

[kIndal]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Phillipe II:
The adding of Portugal was done through succession right and without any great battle.
You can't really talk of a war here.

Well, really it was a small campaign of 2 months, there were only one important battle, Alcantara, in the doors of Lisbon, because the others two sieges (Vilaviçosa and Setubal) were very shorts and Portugueses surrendered almost without battle.
I have added it as a small victoriuos campaign

[Beren]

Originally posted by Giovanni August
Italians are not soldiers

You can say that again. They lost territory in WW I fighting against Austria-Hungary, which had three fronts and a military that sucked.

[Dauphin]

Reminds me of a joke my grandfather told me about the early WW2 Afrika campaign.

The Italian tanks were very advanced having a top speed of 60mph. To maintain performance it had to have five gears. In addition the Italian army put in a forward gear just in case it was ever required to advance.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by kIndal
Well, really it was a small campaign of 2 months, there were only one important battle, Alcantara, in the doors of Lisbon, because the others two sieges (Vilaviçosa and Setubal) were very shorts and Portugueses surrendered almost without battle.
I have added it as a small victoriuos campaign

We both know the all business was more political than anything.

Phillip had the most legitimate stake to the Portuguese Thrown as the most direct heir to it. On the other side, most of the Portuguese Noblesmen were, at the time, fancying the sight of an amazing Empire reaching all known continents, so most of them joined Phillips claim to the thrown, without a fight.

Finally, there was never a military surrender, because Portugal was never a part of Spain: Phillip was I of Portugal, and Second of Spain. the crowns were seperated throughout the Phillipin Ruling in the Peninsula. When Phillip III of Portugal, IV of Spain attemped to merge the crowns, he failled, and Portugal had, again a Portuguese King (D. João IV).

So I prefer to call it a convenient marriage, instead of a military victory.

However, Spain really seems to have conquered Portugal's role, at least in this thread. I really thought it was about Portugal, but people ended discussing the importance of Spain.
We are seriously lacking more Portuguese Apolytoners.